It seems to me that when you solve one problem you are creating a new one. The Proacs are reflex loaded and there is always a risk that these type of speakers will react unfavourably with a rooms resonances, hence the bass issues. When you apply room treatment to deal with these you are simulatously sucking a lot of energy out of the room. To compensate, and energise the room, you need to increase listening levels.
What to do? Speaker placement can help, perhaps even firing them down the short wall if possible. Changing to other speakers with different resonance behaviour could help. Counter intuitively, I think even a couple of subs could help a lot. The bass peaks are dealt with with your treatment but you may benefit from overall more bass energy to get that excitement you are after. Some kind of bass equalisation could help. I have a Linn KDS with their built in Sound Optimization software. This allows for taming peaks and simulatously adding bass energy with subs. There are other similar products available.
Hope this provides some help. A note of caution, in the text above it may seem that I am very sure of myself. I am not. Just my take based on limited experience.
The OP did the treatment trying to improve the room (and presumably with some success). The description doesn’t immediately suggest to me that it is likely to be overdamped, however It is of course relatively easy to remove elements or maybe reposition if adding treatment worsened some things at same time as improving others.
To the OP: I presume to prompt the query this lack of engagement is common across all music you play? I ask because some music - especially rock - always sounds better at or close to realistic (i.e. live) level. Also some recordings are poorer than others, benefitting more from the increase in sound level. Does the system sound good at lower levels with any music?
Could be worth an easy check on your speakers phase. It has been known that manufacturers occasionally wire in a driver or tweeter out of phase in relation to the other drivers.
You don’t have to dismantle the speaker to check. Swap at the terminals. Try first a tweeter on one speaker out then back, then the other out and back and listen. Could take a while but could help to rule that out.
There do seem to be some suggestions here that the power amp could be the issue.
I wonder if a NAP300 would be the answer? I noticed a significant improvement when I went from a 250DR to a NAP300 DR with otherwise the same system as the OP’s excluding speakers (I have Kudos S20’s). The speakers seemed to double in size but low level listening was so much better, that was the big surprise to me.
First thought - turn it down. You will wreck your hearing at that level!
Apart from construction, how does the new room differ from the old? Is it much bigger/smaller? Are you now listening mid field when you were listening near field?
It might be an idea to get hold of a measurement mic and try (eg) REW just to see what’s going on. It can help to rationalise what you’re doing if you move things around, even if you have no intention of doing any DSP room correction.
Unless there is a fault in the 250 then it really isn’t likely to be the problem. More likely that the speakers or positioning thereof just don’t gel with your room.
My 252/ 250-2 set up will run with anything from Kans to the D9.2 s. They do perform differently at different volumes but even the D9.2 s sound well balanced at minimum volume. Try the re positioning first.
I would ask how old are you? When I was younger I would wind that wick how doody! Still do and the reason for that is because I enjoy to do so, regardless of the kit in use. It is a thing. As I get older I can turn it down and still enjoy, but let me tell you once a bit of jungle juice is in me then up it goes!
In horror I think I saw someone ask about your cables, jesus H christ, wind it up and enjoy, its why you have the F off transformer in there.
When you get old, listen to Nora Jones, and other ‘Female Vocals’ in the mean time enjoy.
@Spudgun I owned D30R for a number of years, I’ve been a ProAc dealer and currently own D20R with a REL S/510 . Based on my experience in my 15.5 x 22 foot room ( sorry I’m American and use feet and inches Here’s whats worked for me: Speakers about 7.5 feet apart, much more and one loses bass, at least 3 feet from side walls, about 3 feet from wall behind the speakers more is ok. Use a tape measure, Exact is your friend. Take off the spikes so you can more easily move the speakers around, consider buying the Isoacoustics Gaia feet. Listening position should be in the 9-8 foot range…and Toe in should be so that when seated you should just be able to see a silver of the inside edge of each speaker.
Out of phase is unlikely to be very evident with a tweeter, but clealy audible at the bass end. I’d be a bit surprised if this is the cause of the issue, but easily checked or ruled out (play a mono track - the sound should sound as if it is coming from the middle between the speakers.
Thanks for the input guys I appreciate it. Been a bit busy cleaning my man cave so I could take some pictures, and been out buying an eMTB for the wife (should keep her happy for a while I hope )
Posting the piccies and will reply to the posts tomorrow.
I would be a little careful with this advice. Sometimes drivers need to be wired in reverse polarity and this would be correct for the crossover. If you were to wire it correctly in this example, the crossover wouldn’t work right and you could potentially get a suck out at a certain frequency range. I would leave alone if you don’t have crossover drawings. For example, my midrange driver in my DIY speakers is wired with reverse polarity and this is perfectly normal but I only know this as I have the drawings.
Sorry, unless you meant just to reverse polarity at the speaker terminals to check phase and not individual drivers??
Apologies if so.
Yes indeed be careful over speaker driver phase, sorry TobyJug.
Basically if the driver is connected directly or via a series inductor, typically this be the bass driver, then it will be connected + to +, this is ‘in phase’
If it’s connected via a series capacitor, as is the case with the tweeter, then it will be connected + to - as the capacitor causes th tweeter to run 180 degrees ‘out of phase’.
After that, it’s gets all more complex with various other components & dB octave filters, but bottom line is the speaker designer will have done all this correctly, so avoid any temptation to change.
The problem with all audio is the human ear responds differently at different volumes. Most all audio will not ‘sound the same’ to the human ear at low volumes compared to louder/realist levels.
Some of this can be compensated for with different speakers, but finding the one is easier said than done.
I suspect the best compromise is headphones.
Spudgun, all that I know is the 95 dB is fricking loud! I don’t listen to my active DBLs that loud…and with time your hearing will suffer.
Anyway, assuming you have already optimised speaker positioning, two possibilities:
You have a fault in your system. Most likely is that your 250.2 has embarked upon it inevitable journey from being an amplifier to being an oscillator. This can happen from around age 8 on. It’s a known weakness of the design. So if you in that category, then get the amplifier sorted (its a standard service and four small capacitors are the source of the issue). I’d do that first and try.
If that doesn’t work, then it appears your room is a pain and no amount of fiddling around with cables and amplifiers will fix that. Hence, I’d take a serious look at a pair of speakers that could deal with the issue head on. Dutch & Dutch 8C, Kii 3 with or without BXT etc etc. Arrange an in room demo and see.
Hi,
my first thought was the same as @BruceW had, perhaps a little much damping. How do your own voice and your wife’s sound in this room? Flat and a little dry, hollow, boomy?
Is your rack new or the same you had in your old place?
Another thing and this a wild guess, how is the mains quality at your place? I have just finished a home demo of a balanced power transformer and my system sounds grainy and uninvolving without it.
Hi guys. Thanks again for your input.
As far as the room is concerned it probably is on the dampened side I suspect because of the plasterboard construction and the floating wooden floors but I wouldn’t describe it as dead. The treatments I’ve put in have certainly made a really good improvement with the bass, it has more definition and clarity but still lacks a bit of power/slam. I can’t say that the treatments I’ve made have sucked any more life out of the music than before to be honest. I’ve been aware of this problem for 7 years and believe me I’ve tried lots of things to get the engagement. That’s why I looked into REW and room treatments in the first place. I’m certainly enjoying the music more with them in that without, but can’t get over the fact that I can’t get the chills from tracks like Comfortably Numb which on everything else including Youtube on my ipad chokes me up lol!
Speaker and seating position was done using REW and having lots of available space in the room I’ve tried lots of different sitting and speaker positions both forwards and backwards. Only thing I haven’t tried is firing across the short side which I wont consider because of the screen and projector setup obviously.
I’m using an ipad app Decibel X to measure loudness I’ll try Soundmeter X and correlate it to REW when I get a chance. With the current app I’m finding that I need to get to avg 90db with max 95db to get the room singing adequately. I would prefer to be able to listen at a slightly lower volume but without loosing any of the energy if possible.
So alternatives suggested are service-upgrade to 250dr. This is a definite possibility. I used the 250.2 in this same room when it was 2 years old with the same results as now so I’m sure servicing wouldn’t amend the problem but a DR upgrade might, but if I’m going to spend money on the poweramp should I be considering the 300 too, more power to be able to listen at slightly lower volumes?
Speaker change is also a possibility as others have pointed out. MartinM suggested the D&D 8c / Kii 3 speakers I’ve never really heard of before but look interesting. Any other suggestions? Bigger woofers moving more air?
Will these things help with musical engagement too?
Cheers again
Spud
Hi Andy, don’t worry I have! I have used a mike and REW to help with placement and room treatments. Old room was firing across the room and sitting about 3 m from the speakers and settee against a concreate wall so probably re-inforced the bass. Large window on the left and open space on the right.
Here’s whats worked for me: Speakers about 7.5 feet apart, much more and one loses bass, at least 3 feet from side walls, about 3 feet from wall behind the speakers more is ok. Use a tape measure, Exact is your friend. Take off the spikes so you can more easily move the speakers around, consider buying the Isoacoustics Gaia feet. Listening position should be in the 9-8 foot range…and Toe in should be so that when seated you should just be able to see a silver of the inside edge of each speaker.
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