Router Isolation Stand?

  1. They are not intuitions, they are inquisitiveness.

  2. What evidence do I require to be inquisitive about something?

  3. Some people report that they hear differences when their router is placed on an isolation stand. Some do not.

  4. I personally retain an open mind. I have no idea of the exact mechanism involved but I accept that is not the same thing as being sure that it cannot happen

Inquisitiveness would lead to trying these things AND trying to rule out other, much more likely influences*. This is admittedly difficult, but ā€œsome people hearā€ is no replacement. Some people think that their Covid vaccination made their skin magnetic.

But Iā€™m really out now

* And for some things we may validly choose not to investigate further. Most of us are not trying to repeat Galileoā€™s experiments, either. Anyone who wants to is free to do it, but I am not watching them execute a hundred thousand repetitions. IF they find out anything about them that we donā€™t know, they can write an article and I will be eager to devour it.

EDIT:

Suggestion
Instead of trying to find, by using your extremely unreliable psycho-acoustic apparatus, a minuscule difference by putting the switch on an elaborate vibration-minimizing stand, connect the switch with a very long cable as far away as possible and have a helper vibrate it somehow: blast it with music (e.g. headphones tightly attached), or put it in a kitchen appliance that shakes or something. Let the helper take notes & timing about when the vibration is on or off. Then compare with your notes (or better, a few people), taken when listening while not knowing when it is on or off. You probably need a lot of repeats to reasonably remove subjective (mood, etc.) and statistical (pure chance) artifacts, but itā€™s entirely doable with not too much of an effort.

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Mines porpoising a bit at the moment. Iā€™m thinking of taking a chain saw to some of it. Probably change the house or the garden to see if that helpsā€¦

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No spoilers please, I am still early in watching the recording of FP1 :joy:

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Yes sureā€¦ but I canā€™t accept for the most part it affects sound ā€˜qualityā€™. Yes it may be audible, and it may shift the eq in subtle parts of the spectrum that in turn interact with room reflections or other interactionsā€¦ but on balance in my experience I have found it best to go beyond that mindset.
I have over the last 7 months or so I have got much more involved in music production and that has become quite an eye, or should I say ear openerā€¦ and as a consequence I believe I am more able to hear actual SQ performance as opposed to replay environment interactions and artefactsā€¦

This sort of meaningless response is typical of people without scientific training. It means nothing. It is just an irrelevant statement made to try to divert attention away from the issue at hand.

Your suggested experiment completely misses the point. Again such responses are very typical of non-scientists attempting to ā€˜do scienceā€™.

Your post is non-sensical. You appear to mistrust empirical findings and then design an experiment around just such. Why is this experiment flawed? Because you have already made an assumption that any change in sound quality is as a result of vibration. Why investigate that? If the results are negative does it prove that putting a router on an isolation platform does not change the sound? Of course it doesnā€™t. Moreover, how can it, when some people do report differences?

You exhibit here, as I said, the kind of woolly thinking and self-fulfilling ā€˜experimentsā€™ so typical of people who lack scientific insight but believe that they are ā€˜being scientificā€™.

Sorry, it just wonā€™t wash. You are not a scientist, you lack scientific procedural insight and intellect so stop trying to play the part and leave such things to people who are qualified in them.

I am open to the idea that routers placed on an isolation stand may sound better. I have no idea why. Nor do I care enough to investigate. But if that is the case then it seems sensible to exploit the phenomenon.

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Letā€™s let it rest there. Enough said. As I said before, ignorance I can accept but foolishness always brings out the worst side of me. I have tried to explain where you are going wrong in the hope that you may at least grasp something of the principles involved. But really, leave it to the proā€™s please.

What have you done to test the significance of a router ā€˜isolationā€™ stand?

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Does the switch vibrate the ethernet cable, which in turn vibrates the streamer, which eventually vibrates the analog output? :wink:

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Not if the switch is 2 floors away separed from the LAN port in the living room by 20m of CAT6e.

In my last property it was in a 21u server rack 2 rooms away. In the next it will be in the garage still in a server rack.

I canā€™t see isolating it from microphonics in either scenario will be beneficial. I suppose one could put another switch on the audio rack but Iā€™m very sure more is being gained via physical distance to the switch than isolating it.

If someone feels it should be treated as a hifi component, well itā€™s their money so no skin off my back. The most I am doing is moving from a Planex 16 port switch to a Yamaha low noise switch from their pro-audio range - also a server rack mount configuration.

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I would not take my own comment seriously, see my smiley face.

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Not at all, if you read my posts over the last 15 years or soā€¦I am not doubting the people tune interference and other interactions, including room reflections to produce a pleasing system, as indeed I have done. My point is state that, rather try and justify it in fanciful spurious theories, unless you can support themā€¦ if you like how something sounds, state it, why does it need some piece of science fiction to try and justify itā€¦ itā€™s as if you have little confidence in your assertionā€¦

I also point out how the manufacturer we tend to discuss here, use these principles of noise / digital interference tuning to create and adjust the sonic performance of their productsā€¦ and even here there is so, I understand, a degree of trial and error. So with Naim, like the rest of us, no one knows it allā€¦ but we do understand a basic bedrock of engineering principlesā€¦ because some of us have worked most of our careers as design engineers in networks, IT, systems, digital AV and electronicsā€¦ and it is quite frankly disingenuous to disregard the views of a lifelong development of principles and learningā€¦ and I suspect you may even use technology and services I have helped develop collaboratively over the years when you next turn on your Sky box TV, stream your next YouTube, or Facebook video, buy something online, or take advantage of your home internet broadbandā€¦ if we didnā€™t know a bed rock hereā€¦ you wouldnā€™t be able to enjoy these servicesā€¦ and I am personally very proud to have had my part and hopefully continue to have my part in the development of these technologies for the benefit and enjoyment of much of the worlds populationā€¦ and closer to home I had my part in the development of the humble ā€˜audiophileā€™ switch, which I discovered as a by product of using engineering principles in hunting down RFI causing intermodulation artefacts on my Naim tuner all those years ago.

So sure no one knows it allā€¦ but some of us when we hear or notice something unusual or different, if we have the curiosity, engineering prowess and capability we investigate where we can and share the learning we may find for the benefit of others whether it be privately or professionally.

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I canā€™t help thinking youā€™ve introduced an idea, didnā€™t like the answers and had your leg pulled a bit.

Full disclosure, Iā€™m in the sceptics camp and used gut instinct to conclude itā€™s not worth the time, cost or effort to me.

You sound a bit sciency, so why not use scientific method to test your hypothesis and then report back. Iā€™ll be delighted for you if you discover something new which has a material effect.

Otherwise, see this as just a lively debate where you have to take the rough with the smooth.

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Not sure what you are getting at Simon. I wasnā€™t trying to justify anything nor introduce any fanciful spurious theories.

I am aware that some people report sonic benefits from placing their router on some kind of isolation support, much the same as with their hi-fi. I do not pretend to have any idea why this should be. Perhaps it is linked to vibration/microphony or perhaps not.

I was curious as to other peopleā€™s experiences with regard to this. Mostly the answers I received have been dismissive and fairly irritating rather than helpful and constructive. If people think that there is nothing to be gained from isolating the router then why not just say so politely? No need for all the mickey-taking etc.

Sometimes I find this forum to be populated by helpful people who share my enthusiasm for audio and are only too willing to discuss with me any concerns or ideas I have. Oddly, at other times, the response is almost entirely negative and unhelpful. I donā€™t think Iā€™ve asked a stupid question and I donā€™t think it deserves stupid answers.

No matter. Iā€™ve put my router on little home-made (Ikea chopping board) stand and weā€™ll see. It would have been lovely if I could have got some sensible and kind feedback from others but obviously itā€™s not to be, save for one or two people who have provided helpful responses.

Clearly with this forum if one asks the ā€˜wrongā€™ question then one will be mercilessly thrown to the lions. Disappointing.

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Thatā€™s as bad as my pic of the cushions around my Qb! :rofl: https://community.naimaudio.com/t/disappointed-with-qb-sound/22371/46

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Strange that these discussions get so polarised. As Pete01 clearly points out there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in a simple scientific philosophy.

Iā€™m reminded that science still can not explain gravity on both the macro and micro scale despite some of the finest minds in the world working on it for more than a few hundred years.

Matter only makes up about 5% of the universe that we know and see. Science doesnā€™t have a clue what 95% of the rest is? We know that a quantum world exists but we canā€™t measure it. As soon as we do itā€™s no longer in the quantum world.

We think of electrons in a piece of wire moving around that will eventually end up at our ears as sound. Thatā€™s what we see and hear in the macro world. In the quantum ā€˜microā€™ world thereā€™s a whole lot more going on in that piece of wire that we canā€™t begin to understand or imagine.

Why should it be difficult to believe that with a complex and sensitive audio system some people can hear small changes that canā€™t be explained by what science knows today?

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I suggest you would see an improvement if you swapped the pepper and salt grinders over.

Thank you Geko for the most balanced, sensible and helpful response of the entire thread. This is exactly the sort of thing that I would have hoped the community as whole would have offered rather than the sarcasm, bland dismissiveness and plain nastiness on display. Makes me question why I would want to be part of a community comprising of such people. Perhaps I donā€™t.

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I am a simple soul and am quite happy with the idea that things may make a difference but I donā€™t understand why. Iā€™m fine with that but others less so. If someone puts an isolation platform under a router and the music sounds better to them, thatā€™s all that matters.

Iā€™d gently suggest that perhaps you did get quite confrontational in some of your responses, which raised the temperature unnecessarily. That is a shame as the discussion then becomes an argument and people can take increasingly polarised views and it ultimately gets us nowhere.

None of this is ultimately remotely important and itā€™s simply not worth getting confrontational about.