Source First? What’s your Second?

while my considerations and choices were not all or necessarily temporal, I agree with your comment.
and by no means I underestimate the importance of the best source one can possibly get + the synergy achieved, absolutely critical.

Definitely a very interesting thread!

One thing possibly not mentioned yet is acquired knowledge. It is embedded in the journey of building a system in various iterations that one learns. To from experience get a sense of what’s available, what is achievable or desirable financially, how much effort you want/need to invest and especially discovering what your sonic preferences are. All this can also develop over time.

With the knowledge I have now, and given a hypothetical opportunity to start from a clean slate all in one go, I could easily put together one or more systems with new components. They would be well balanced, meet my preferences and suit the budget I would have available at various levels.

I couldn’t do that when I started out many years ago. So in a (much) more complicated way I have arrived at the system I have now. As for the question if it qualifies as a source first system, it was not intended to be one, it just resulted from the journey. Perhaps others move in the same way.

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recognise the fire I had the same in the 80s😯
Not the stereo though unfortunately
Apologies off topic

There’s definitely a lot to be said for a one box solution from Naim or Linn. Source first and a balanced sound are all taken out of your hands, notwithstanding speakers of course.

The speaker/room is the most important “component”. If you get this wrong you will never get the sound right.
A well designed speaker placed in the optimal location (critically important) will sound excellent with a modestly priced CD player and integrated amp.
Most audiophiles spend a lifetime upgrading components trying to compensate for poorly designed speakers or lack of placement flexibility.

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Warm welcome, Naimism.

Speaker-room first. Yes, critical. Some members here have also shared the same sentiments. Good read here. It’s what a veteran audio dealer also reminded me.

Source & Pre amp as priority upgrades in whichever order that rocks our boats.

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Source first as you cannot improve it with a better amp or speakers. Preamp next as it is the heart of the system. Followed by amplification, then speakers, but balance is the key. An argument can be made for any combination but synergy is key.

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Lots of mention of balance here, and certainly the ideal is good balance between all components. However, unless someone has sufficient available resources to buy their ultimate system outright, or to upgrade their entire system every time they want to step it up, reality means that perfect balance is not always achievable. The bigger the steps made towards an ultimate goal, which is the most economic approach to upgrading, the greater the potential imbalance at any one time - and the longer the imbalance may have to remain, yet the system must remain enjoyable.

Going for endgame speakers as soon as one can provided the amp is ‘good enough’ to not lose control of them, even if not bringing of the speakers’ best, and likewise provided the the source has no major failings, can result in a very enjoyable system even if it is significantly “out of balance” - and every source upgrade will give the speakers better material to sing with, and every amp upgrade will help them sing better.

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At the Audio East show a few years back the following system was demonstrated:

Rega P3 with Transfiguration MC (I don’t know which but I recall it retailed at £1k)
Audio Analogue Integrated ACCento
Floorstanding Magneplanners.

Anyone that went in the room said it was one of the best sounding systems on the day.

Nigel (HH) nailed it in the first reply to the OP. As a system building philosophy it has always served me well. The end result for me is a balanced overall system, but the route getting there was heavily source first.

It should be seen as a process not an end result in my view.

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Sauce with firsts.
Custard with seconds. (Although ice cream during the summer months is a useful option)

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Got my LP12 in 1983.
To me, on the basis om my experience, ‘source first’, but not obsessively so, is the best way towards the enjoyment of music.
This does seem rational to me…and has been quite obvious to my ears.

Before I went to the Bristol HiFi show few years ago my usual approach would be source player (eg Cds, turnatable etc…) first, then amplifier. But having heard an ATC system things began to get a lot more clearer and gratefully more simple. If I had the funds I would buy the ATC SCM40 speakers first and then what left of the funds I would try to get the best amp with good DAC. Important to get an amp with good current power in order that it can drive the ATC’s properly. I heard the entry level ATC SIA-100 Integrated amp driving these speakers and was impressed. Both components for my ears clearly gelled and even though the amp generates only 100 watts per channel into 8ohms it certainly made the speakers sing! I think its something to do with the amp being a mosfet design that is so powerful but I am no expert in amp designs. The negative draw back is the cheap plastic remote, so all the intent, purpose and detail went into the amp itself. The Dac in the amp seemed to do the job without any feeling of that something is missing. So after the ATC speakers for me the second is the amp and then the DAC etc… However I need to pay attention to the quality of the rest of the system in order to get the good from the speakers, so maybe its a vicious circle…?

Ice cream is ALWAYS a viable option !!

Rack first

Then interconnects

Correct order for system building is listed below :shushing_face:- and best if you do this from scratch, with your very first system. Of course, budget may run out before reaching 9, 8 or maybe even 7, but don’t worry, the system will improve when budget becomes available to add these as upgrades. (See footnotes referenced by Roman numerals).

  1. Rack (i)
  2. Vibration isolation (ii)
  3. Interconnects (iii)
  4. speaker cables (iv)
  5. Mains cables (v)
  6. Room treatment (vi)
  7. Amplification (vii)
  8. Source (viii)
  9. And finally, speakers (ix)

Footnotes:
i) Before knowing what’s going on it.
ii) Before knowing what they’re isolating from what.
iii) Before knowing what they’ll be connecting.
iv) Before knowing what amp or speakers, or their positions in the room.
v) Before knowing what and how many mains units there will be.
vi) Before knowing where speakers and listening positions will be.
vii) To suit chosen rack and various cables, before knowing what speakers or source will be.
viii) To suit the chosen rack and amp inputs.
ix) To produce the best sound at the chosen listening position given the chosen amp, speaker cables, room layout, room treatment, and within any remaining budget.

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When it comes to buying a flat screen TV or projector system do you focus on the DVD player first, or the cables that connect the player, or the rack the TV sits on?
The speaker/room is the window to your upstream components and, if well designed, will allow you to properly assess any component you introduce. In today’s world of exceptional electronics, they are by far the most variable in terms of performance and most subject to colouring/limiting the sound. All of them have some degree of tonal imbalance and distortion that is considerably higher than any piece of electronics.
At most high end shows, the best of show is often a modest affair simply because they were able to achieve the best speaker/room configuration. Rarely is this correlated with the “best” source.

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Gold.

^

Great feedback, thank you.

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I agree with this entirely. This is what I did and it worked exactly as you say. You can also be confident that you are getting the most from your electronics along the way.

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I guess I have always leaned towards a source first approach, after my share of mistakes and awful system building attempts. Those early attempts were based on good magazine reviews and opportunistic purchasing, with little regard to system balance and synergy, for example trying to drive Linn Kans with a rather modest (non-Naim) amp.

Lessons learnt, I adopted a source first approach and built a system around a LP12. But I still didn’t really get the importance of arm and cartridge, as I clung onto a Basik LVX arm and a rather cheap MM cartridge.

After a disastrous change to a home cinema system, I returned back to a 2 channel system, determined to do it right (or better) this time.

Moving from an entry level CD based olive system to streamer based classic black boxes, I truly adopted source/pre amp first approach. Starting with a Uniti2, UnitiServe and half decent floor standers to get me started with streaming, I moved to separate classic black boxes. I ensured system synergy by sticking with Naim classic black boxes as I upgraded.

Graduating up the first, and later second generation streamer hierarchy, and in parallel going up the Classic pre amp hierarchy, I moved slower up the power amp hierarchy and stuck with my floor standers. It paid off as SQ was taking big strides and my system never seemed out of balance as I upgraded my streamer and pre amp. But you can only take this source/pre amp first approach so far before some balance has to be restored. So I now have a beautifully balanced 500 system with very modest (in comparison) speakers, my next and final change.

It is however important to pay attention to racks, cables and set up as you go up the Naim Classic hierarchy - these things make an appreciable difference. Infuriatingly, network devices (e.g. switches, servers) and ethernet cables also make a difference in serious streamer based system, but much of this is trial and error, although there is a body of experience on here now to help guide us. There is however a danger of going too deep down this particular rabbit hole.

One area I have probably neglected is the importance of speaker/room matching, and the whole topic of room treatment. I have however more recently paid attention to soft furnishings and first reflection points. That is as far as I am willing (or will be allowed) to go down the room treatment rabbit hole. Fortunately my largish, rear ported floor standers are rather room friendly and can be used successfully is modest sized spaces.

So IMV, a rigid ‘source first’ approach is too limiting, particularly with streamer based systems. For example, many apparently modest DACs punch way above their weight. We also now have to pay some attention to our LANs as we upgrade our streamer capabilities. If you consider the streamer/server/pre-amp as a source then I would agree that this is the heart of the front end. So maybe ‘front end fist’ is a better term.

This is purely my experience and YMMV.

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