Given the conditions in my country, it’s unfortunately not easy to listen to, compare, or even access different brands. As an audiophile enthusiast, I’ve tried to carve out a path for myself based on the information I’ve gathered through forums, reviews, and tests. As my knowledge has grown, so have my ears and tastes evolved over time. Along this journey, I’ve tried many systems. In summary, I sought deep and powerful bass that is dry and clear , beautiful vocals, and clean and detailed yet non-fatiguing three-dimensional sound. Since I liked Dali’s sound, I pushed my limits and bought the Dali Epicon 8. Learning that music is the sum of compatible components was an expensive lesson. After what could be called a romantic purchase of the Epicons due to poor wallet management, it was unfortunately not possible to acquire other components that would match them. When driving the Epicon 8s with the Acuphase E408 in a 7x7x3 meter listening space, the soundstage became overly complex and the sound very fatiguing, especially at high volumes. I sold the Acuphase and bought the Naim Supernait 2 and ND5XS Streamer. (When I started preferring Spotify over CDs, my CD player remained at the Ah nja tjoeb level.) With the new setup, I finally achieved a sound I liked. I’m very happy at high volumes, but when I listen at low volumes, especially at night, the grandeur of that beautiful sound disappears. The bass becomes hard to hear, the highs fade, and it turns into something like car radio sound. I added a JL Audio Fathom F113, but since it disrupted all the balances in the sound, I sold it.
My question to the forum is this: Would upgrades such as adding a Hi-Cap or upgrading the streamer, while preserving my current system which I’m happy with except at low volumes, be a solution for my dissatisfaction at low volumes? Or is it inevitable to switch to a more powerful amplifier? Would Naim pre-power combos suffice for this, or are even more powerful amplifiers necessary? Or is the solution to sell the Epicon 8s and move to smaller speakers? At this point, it’s no longer possible for me to make more romantic purchases, so I strongly need suggestions based on the knowledge and experience of the forum members. Thank you for your support.
It’s usually a good idea to have a large speaker in a large room. Your Dalis are well reviewed and as you like them it would be a shame to sell them. The problem is that both the ND5XS2 and the Supernait 2 are out of their depth. Getting a NSS222 and the New Classic 250 would be a good place to go, while the 333, 332 and 250 or 350 would be even better.
Hi Vogi and welcome to the forum. I have not heard your speakers myself, so am going on general experience.
I agree with @HungryHalibut that going up the Naim ladder, either 200 or even better 300 series, would be a sensible move if you have the funds available. What I am not sure is whether that would solve your low level listening issue. Many speakers, particularly those that strive for a neutral sound, can sound less engaging at low volume exactly in the manner you describe in your post. It’s partly a reflection of how human hearing works. The lack of boundary reinforcement in your large listening space is likely to exacerbate the issue.
So a change of speakers might be called for, but I know of few models that really excel both at realistic and at low volume levels. There have been a few threads on here discussing this point so it would be worth a bit of searching the forum if you do decide to change them.
But I’d be inclined to start by investing in some New Classic kit first and see how that goes. Do let us know how you get on.
a wellintegrated sub might be a way to go, but buying on forum or other advice without hearing is a good way of getting in the wrong direction unfortunately. I have not heard any of the current models from Dally afor many reasons, since they seem to change from year to year. At least for some Naim components like my old 250 low listerning on efficient speakers could be a problem, but I do not know your Naim integrated. The only thing I do know is that the new classics like the 222 has a volume control that makes it easy to play at really low levels, but you will always lose something bass and 3d when listening at llow and very low levels.
Thank you very much for your valuable supports. From your suggestions, I understand that upgrading with Naim products will noticeably improve the sound quality at both high and low listening levels, but we cannot be sure that it will be enough to meet my satisfaction goals at low listening volume.
I conducted some experiments by listening to Spotify and Qobuz with different components from various brands. As a result, I concluded that one of the most important factors is the source, meaning the streamer and streaming services . Of course, there was no need to “rediscover America,” Since Spotify is the only streaming service available in our country, it wasn’t easy to achieve these results. To be honest, I never expected it to make such a significant difference. Before making a decision, I want to try adding the Bluesound NODE to see if I can achieve the desired results with Qobuz Hi-Res music. I believe the results will improve here. Afterward, I may consider an amplifier upgrade. Speaking specifically about the Epicon, it’s a speaker that provides high-quality sound. Although the details seem slightly reduced at low volume, I believe this is due to the reasons I mentioned earlier.
That is normal human ear behaviour! Google Fletcher Munson curve for info. If the bass end weak to start with it may be more obvious. It is the reason for the crude “loudness switch” that used to be included on some amps, though it was a very blunt tool, only approximately correct compensation at one level. In these days of DSP there is an argument for a sophisticated version that would alter the compensation according to average sound level, however I’m not aware of anyone doing that yet.
One suggestion not so far made, is to consider something like an Atom HE + headphones, for late night listening. Careful auditioning and choice of headphones would be important but if they were closed back design, then higher listening levels could be an option in use.
Without knowing exactly which country you are in, it may be necessary to take a trip, with pre-arranged auditions. Likely if Atom HE was likely source, then a short list of suitable headphones, maybe with forum thoughts, could be the way forward. A couple of Naim. dealers in the uk also specialise in headphones, one being my own dealer, Paul at HiFi Lounge, who could offer guidance by email if necessary.
I’ve often wondered about that. I guess a major problem is determining what the “average sound level” is since, in addition to the volume set on the electronics, perceived volume will likely depend on factors such as sensitivity and type of the speakers used, room size and furnishings, and even where the listener is located. Still, I’ll follow any developments in that direction with interest.
What I would in envisage is calibration of a loudness function by using a microphone at the listening position, whereby system and room related factors are taken into account. Once that calibration is done there would need to be some sort of link to volume control to enable correct setting. Sensibly it should also have a manual override, bearing in mind that recording levels are not always the same. Maybe not perfect, but better than suffering the effects otherwise when listening to music at low sound levels, and better than a crude on/off loudness control that is only right at one sound level.
erm; “Dolby Volume”?
(modern auto scale vs Yamaha ‘variable loudness control’ which has been around for more than thirty years on their stereo amps
That is normal human ear
Anthem Processors do the room correction (and can apply Dolby Volume).
I used an Anthem MRX720 to control a Naim Nait (in AV bypass mode)
best upgrade!!
the high quality dedicated power in the Naim integrated eased the power ‘burden’ from the integrated surround receiver…
whilst the benefit to the stereo speakers, from the inclusion of the Nait in the system, was huge…
the real benefit was in the vastly superior sound in ALL other surround channels - although Your Mileage May Vary- my mains are large and happily eat juice…
Using a processor to do room correction etc can be very useful.
for anyone using digital hearing aids etc- definately worth doing…
Dolby Volume wpuld work in ‘Dolby Surround’ mode.
Dolby Surround mode, if engageable whilst only running two speakers (untested); sounds like a solution as others here might talk about…
Anyhow- I have played with processing- and it has the nasty effect of robbing musical fidelity from the stream.
a quarter century ago many ‘hi end’ hifi users toyed with a Behringer 'correction device, some even running twenty meters of XLR to put the box beside them and allow hearing ‘room corrected’ vs ‘natural’; and majority pundits with their several hundred thousand dollar hifi rigs --HAPPILY-- let the Behringer “Ultra Curve Pro” remain in their setups, even with the circuit noise and fidelity ‘nuance’ dullening it brought…
Room Corrected Sound is of course ‘the goal’.
as the OP has already experienced, at higher volume levels the room added brightness (reflections!)…
-This has been my battle over the last week- in attempting to microphone my listening space to capture ‘the majik’ - at low volume levels may not be ‘flatline’ sound, and as I turn up (to capture bass slam etc) the REFLECTED sound gets crazy.
My room has had effort to control such sound, but ‘pushing the volume’ (a little higher) and aspects of my room control are ‘not good enough’…
I am not talking “clap” and ‘listen for echo’ levels of ‘room control’ (everyone should have THAT sorted); but for quality imaging and an unconfusing sound recreation, speaker placement (and selection) is critical.
I ‘cheated’ and stole a Yamaha DSP3000 (eek model number from memory) from the lounge surround setup, and put inline in my den ‘hifi’ setup, normally a very dedicated stereo only affair…
Using the Surround receivers setup microphone, and a visual display of the measured frequency responce at the listening position, I was able to inch my main speakers forward/backward to have the bass smooth and well integrated with the treble.
For soundstage (speaker angling), I used familiar material, Vanessa Mae ‘buttetfly lovers concherto’, and toed in/out as necessary to make soundfield ‘right’.
Obviously this is just part of the hobby, a ‘do once and be done’ dirty distraction… (typically)
Now the OP has some excellent concept here to be explored; YES - other options exist for inproving ‘low volume sound’.
(I don’t have any comments on users speakers, but have auccesfully used Acoustic Research LSTs in a small bedroom, so, ‘whatever’! )
When I turn music up it is ‘to hear it more clearly’, majority of the time… (sometimes it is to ‘rock out’, but since becoming a parent it is/was mostly the former- ‘to hear clearly’)
A nicer DAC is majority of ‘that battle’.
Many are believers of ‘speakers first’; but I have collected hifi from five/six decades of vintage and have always tried to system match/‘match TIERS’; and can speak from experience of setups such as
Top tier transport into Nice DAC and then fed into a B&W Zeppelin (ipad speaker) with a subwoofer…
(or equally zany setups)
A system IS a sum of the parts.
.
(OP knows this)
So, better DAC helps detail retrieval (sound is easy/natural)…
I’d recommend any high quality DAC (by price point), and forget vintage (unless it is 90s), and make sure your stream to it is solid.
Having moved onto digital streaming services, at the very least a iFi Zen streamer, with GTO filter running on one of their DACs (using nice BurrBrown DACs) would be a place to start, to see if midrange glare/‘pain’ can be cleared up…
Improve YOUR transport!!
Friends who bought WiiM (upper tiered stuff), could upgrade their digital audio output simply by swapping in better power supplies.
Chances are your last phone had a high powered wall wart, that may be unused… if it is heavier than what cimes with your streamer, chance are it is a BASIC UPGRADE.
iFi make power supplies that WILL cover your accesory needs.
I’d encourage an iPurifier on your (digital) stream, to the DAC- this has made a huge difference to the treble in my setup…
Some Tori Amos tracks on ‘Boys for Pele’ were simultaneously siblant and ‘too dark’ (alternating) after installing an (spdif) iPurifier inline… it had fixed up the source read SO MUCH that the vocals were now VASTLY BETTER.
darker moments sound better at raised volume, but the siblant lyrics?
Needed a pillow between the speakers; fixed.
and that is my diatribe, full circle.
room control is huge
tranport quality and DAC quality WILL alter midrange harshness
I use a non oversampling Resistor2Resistor (ladder) DAC.
it does away with brightness that delta sigma DACs have.
D/S can be tuned to sound ‘natural’ (or even use tech like the iFi GibbsTransientOptimised/GTO filter),… but when we move to revealing setups, hinest playback in budget DACs and DeltaSigma designs is often ‘very lacking’.
Using a more traditional stereo setup, like I do, built for 90s digital, actually has the ‘hard to do digital’ (redbook audio is 16bit 44khz) sounding like it should…
My twenty year old CDs sound engaging and musical like they should.
modern designs seem to give MQA and DSD and PCM at absurdly hugh rates, but also sound naff when playing anything recorded pre DSD/MQA…
Depending on musical tastes, I’d put money into r2r DAC,… if genres are not orchestral/‘pre 2000s’ then I’d put money into improving transport, either power supplies, or digital cables/‘iFi dongle’ etc
certainly, at low volume listening, more detail can be had, and that will largely mitigate a need to turn system up…
Crude loudness control? You’re forgetting the “advanced” variable loudness control on the old Yamaha cr (820 in my case). By then the less is more was catching on so it was possible (and recommended) that all tone altering controls were switched out most of the time . What it really did was give you (me) too many (slightly altered) choices.
I didn’t know that gave loudness compensation - however I am not convinced it is suitable for quality music replay, as that does not benefit from auto sound levelling, given that some music is intended to be louder than other music.
I don’t need persuading that room correction can be beneficial, however it is important to ensure that the room is as good as can be achieved acoustically as dsp room correction can’t fix cancellations, excessive reverberation time, nor early reflections. A decent DSP box between source and DAC could then apply as much room correction as my be desired, and even “tone control” to improve some poor recordings, and also manual loudness compensation, unless a suitable quality automated facility is or becomes available that doesn’t also automatically adjust volume.
I’ve had a quick look at anthem, and they don’t appear to do a hifi version that can be inserted between source and DAC.
interesting; their processor costs ‘twice as much’ and lacks seven channels of amplification.
it is the gold standard for setups ‘south of ten k’ cost…
trinnov etc for ‘higher price brackets’.
Anthem is certainly the cheapest way to get listener position ‘room optimisation’ at home…
as a processor (my ‘Anthem receiver’ using outboard amps for ALL channels), feeding into the Musical Fidelity NuVista M3, a stereo amp some reviewers listed as ‘best ONE BOX amp’ (sounds equal to some dual mono power amp setups); the setup was amazing…
even re Digitising my R2R DACs analogue output; the Anthem ‘as a processor’ flogs modern mainstream stuff…
sure it would be ‘holding back’ top tier transports and DACs (most at this price range simply believe all digital is perfect and are happy with an Oppo Blurray player for CD); but the audible improvements from perfectly studio’d listening environment far surpasses ‘slight’ tonal and detail improvements from more capable ‘budget’ teo channel kit.
the R2R DAC resampled, benefits from matched filter for encode and decode, and still sounds better than the Anthems internal DAC(s)… doing everything…
The Anthem was alright as a preamp,… but a handful of amps in the house were ‘more musical’; including a class A marantz amp from the mid eighties, and a Rotel surround amp from late nineties…
otherwise- it bested most modern mass market crap.
I have heavily used flagship and upper tier surround receivers from Yamaha/Denon/Onkyo/Integra/Marantz/Rotel etc and the Anthem is the modern replacement for dedicated processors like an Outlaw990.
it is true that a Proceed AVP2 (surround processor) seriously flogs the Anthem as a preamp; but the Proceed AVP2 is ‘hardly mass market’…
for small coin outlay, the Anthem is a best bet, easily.
For majority of mainstream market it is ‘the Holy Grail’; and is one of the few mainstream brands that could double as ‘two channel’ (quality) capable.
Its ace is the room correction, otherwise, it is, like every other sub 10k surround receiver, nearly useless for high quality two channel… (vs budget well selected true two channel parts).
There are low cost alternatives: with Audirvana you can get a Dirac Live ‘plug-in’ software (or could, I haven’t checked since I trialed about 8 years ago), and some people using Roon get a room correction add-on for that.
When I had an active system with a digital AXO I used spare DSP capacity to even out a few dips, but it didn’t have a facility for quickly selectable presets for tweaking at the time of play. I’m aware of Trinov, but very expensive, while there are reasonably priced MiniDSP products but all have limitations.
I think conceptually, that type of thinking greatly undermines the quality and capability of the Anthem room control…
but, sure,… plugins exist and ‘many paths to the summit’.
Not every rock skims across the pond so well.
Some rocks are perfectly great rocks; but…
Anthem 10 point setup is INSANE quality.
Uses a CALIBRATED microphone. This is significant…,.
Anthem bass management factors room standing waves etc.
can open up the sweet spot for listening using ‘profiles’, and no doubt there are a lot of similarities to Roon licenses for ‘something that reads as being similar’.
I don’t know- this isn’t my area of expertise.
I still have my Behringer ultra-curve pro, still have my anthem (in the bedroom), and still use manual room correction and EFFORT when setting up two channel.
I like unadulterated two channel audio.
My setup clearly shows differences between DAC architectures etc…
Many who do digital manipulation claim no benefits from cables and transports and …
Quite possibly there is truth to both modalities…
If I was correcting my room I would certainly LOOK at an Anthem processor, or even their much more cost effective ‘surround amps’.
removing the room from the equation of ‘audio playback’ is HUGE.
I think we are not comparing like with like. My aim is for something that fits in my existing hifi setup, and usable if the source changes. The Anthem processor would require putting a computer in between source and DAC, while one of their amps would be a complete change.
As for removing the room from the equation, I do not need the concept selling to me - please see my many posts over the years, including where I describe an instance when I literally removed the room - but in particular electronic room correction alone cannot do that, having significant limitations. And for reference, I have a calibrated mic, and when I’ve dabbled I have played with both multi-point and single point calibrations…
apologies I was writing solutions to the OP when I put forward ‘room sorting’ (and placement of those speakers etc, but we assume they have already done these steps)
the dolby volume info was just because it does what you describe (thats its’ purpose) varying the bass for low volume listening, and as it runs on top of what the processor is already factoring (room correction, generally speaking), and so works well as a solution.
When you said you didn’t know of any such tech; I thought it was appropriate to mention.
As someone who likes to tinker, I ‘trialed’ Dolby volume, and more so, Anthem Room Correction, with nice amps and DACs… typically my two channel high end, or, what some consider ‘hi-fi’ (truly) setups.
I didn’t want to, and to be honest, had little to no faith in what it would do…
but as I already posted; it was worthwhile feeding from half decent ladder DACs and really nice D/S stuff; the extra air and capability that these DACs had over the internal Anthem ‘as a DAC’ was worth doing… for some reason having it do an Analogue to Digital pass (from nicer hifi sources) came across and could be recreated with extra fidelity in the playback…
sure it lost aspects of the better DACs (pure), but what it gave via a room corrected sound was ‘worth considering’.
But, as you say… ‘get the room sorted’, and - attempting to do that, was able to happily retire the Anthem, as a processor, from the audio chain…
keep it simple, yes?
For the OP:
I’d really make sure you trialed some speaker locations… (different speakers mate differently with a room, not always sitting happily in the same spot as the last)
also… make sure you have a thousand hours or so on those speakers…
The bass units will become more flexible and respondant at lower music volume (in just a short while)- apologies I didn’t reread initial post to clarify origin /‘newness’ of the speakers now in place…
and certainly consider an iFi spdif reclocker in place if practical…
for me it gave a lot in the midrange clarity that has really moved the bar and made listening easier.
)