Streamer connection to the internet

Streaming Audio
1

Hello all,

I realise that this subject has been discussed here at length, but there are differing views and where the technical explanation appears very informed, I have ended up a bit confused.

My problem is that I am experiencing drop outs on my streamer, which is situated a long way from my router and a wired connection is problematical (various carpets/floorboards need pulling up or going outside the house) let’s assume those are not options.

I have 18 months left on a contract with Virgin Media, which seems to be widely condemned as one of the worst ISPs, though I am getting what seems to be average or above speeds to the router.

I think the problem is the WiFi.

Does anyone know if I can just replace the Virgin router hub 4…. Or do I need it for the TV service? Can I run both?

If I can replace the Virgin router with a high quality router (or switch??), then configure it so the hifi is on a fixed channel of its own, and use a bridge at the other end, would that improve things?

I use words like switch and bridge without properly understanding them, so please explain as if instructing a child :slightly_smiling_face:

I have heard mixed views on using power lines (network connectivity not to power the Naim equipment), and also Mesh solutions, but I get a sense that it would be better to improve the WiFi system rather than use a work around (which can have their own problems), I may of course be wrong.

I also have an Atom and that has zero drop outs, though one dealer told me that the NSS 333 is more sensitive and really needs a wired connection.

There is a remote possibility that there is a fault with the 333, and to eliminate this possibility I will swap my 333 with my dealer’s demo 333 to see if the problem remains.

Finally, I have heard it said that a very well set up WiFi can be as good (or better) that a wired connection, and so this is what I want to achieve before I start ripping floors up and running chases into walls :slightly_smiling_face:

Again, sorry to go over ground that has been covered elsewhere, I have done some research, but I am still unsure how to proceed.

Many thanks,
Tony

2

Have you ever used a ‘WiFi Analyzer’? There are free Android apps, for example. These apps will show signal strength and channel use. It can be informative and see what the signal is like at the location of your streamer.

I would not go for power-line adapters. I used them until someone told me that these introduce a lot of noise. Removing the power-line adapters made a real difference.

I am not a WiFi expert, so probably others can advice.

3

The Virgin hub can be run in what is called modem mode so it just provides an ethernet based connection to the Virgin cable network. It is required.

The first questions to ask would be, are you in close proximity to other houses WiFi, and also are there any other wireless devices close to either the streamer or the Virgin Hub?

4

You can put the Virgin hub into modern mode and then connect your own router, which is what we did when we had Virgin. But unless the new router - which must be cabled to the Virgin hub - is much closer to the 333 you may not see an improvement.

One option is to cancel Virgin, find a new full fibre supplier, and get them to bring the service into the house much closer to the Naim. Of course, the WiFi router needs to be in a place where it can provide a good strong signal for everything else you use. You may find that the cancellation fee is lower than the cost of buying additional equipment, and if the monthly fee for the new service is lower it will partially offset the cancellation fee. Some providers have offers where they give up to nine months free if you are still in contract.

5

For maybe $50, you could buy a very long run of Ethernet cable and run it through your house direct from router to the 333 and test the stream reliability.

If you calculate the length correctly, this could become the actual cable that you could eventually install.

1 Like
6

Do you have a good 4/5G data connection? Just use your mobile phone as a WiFi hotspot to test the streamer.

FWIW I use a 4GEE data connection very successfully for both music and TV streaming.

7

A few observations based on my own experiences. I should say that I have now abandoned streaming in favour of CD only. I have found that wi-fi is nothing but bad news in trems of the musical integrity of a system. It simply has a negative impact that, for me at least, is impossible to ignore. We have disabled the Wi-Fi on our BT Smart Hub (also the public wi-fi signal) and it has had a clearly audible benefit on the system. I acknowledge that such a move will be intolerable for most people these days, particularly with kids at home. For us it’s workable as we basically just use one laptop between us plugged into the router. No other smart devices in everyday use to worry about except the TV and we don’t stream any video material. If you could disable the wi-fi and use a long ethernet cable as @Dugby suggested this would solve your problem and potentially give a nice uplift in sound quality as well. But routing the cable may be problematic over a long distance.

Another possibility, and this will only be viable if you listen mainly to locally stored files rather than on line libraries or internet radio, is to put all your stuff on to a SSD plugged into your 333. Again should be better SQ wise than streaming across an inherently noisy network. It then remains to establish whether your wi-fi will allow control via the app without issues. If so then it would be an excellent solution IMO.

8

Seperate your wifi from the router so not a switch but a quality wifi access point, or if you are talking a really big house a wifi mesh solution that can bring wifi to a big space by creating a mesh system that is managed by the hardware. But again drop the wifi on the router and disable it unless you use it for other purposes.

Claus

9

Hi all, thanks for the replies.

I have bought a long network cable and this weekend I plan to have an extended session using it, and we’ll see how it goes.

Assuming that works ok, I will investigate improving the WiFi, which is generally not good, so does need attention/improvement.

I am still not sure if I can use a high quality router and keep my cable TV (which I guess still goes via the Virgin hub 4) or whether the TV can also go through the new router - I might need to join a Virgin forum to sort that out.

Does anyone have a recommendation for a decent router?

Also, do I also need a bridge at the streamer end, or should I try the new router first?

Many thanks,
Tony

10

Log into the router and disable 5ghz, this will force the streamer onto 2.4GHz. 2.4GHz goes through wall and further than 5ghz.

If that improves things, I’m pretty sure the router can be split into separate 2.4GHz an 5ghz networks.

11

Actually someone (maybe you) mentioned this in a previous thread, and I have done this.

I need a days listening to see if it has improved.

Thanks,

:slightly_smiling_face::slightly_smiling_face:
Tony

12

Indeed. My Community Fibre broadband is only £25 per month for 2Gb upload and download. WiFi in the lounge is about 600Mb.

Free installation too.

13

I would always try the simplest approach first, and add additional equipment only when necessary.

1 Like
14

You can technically add another, more capable router to the setup. However, issues like Double NAT emerge, and Naim gear is prone to this. Putting the new router next to the Virgina most likely won’t help, as the streamer’s router remains, you know, weak.

Consider the following setup:

  1. Place another router close to your streamer, a couple of feet away at most. Choose a new, fast router with large, long-range antennas that supports Media Bridge mode.
  2. Set it to operate in Media Bridge mode (check for this capability before buying it). In this mode, the router uses Wi-Fi to connect to your Virginia router.
  3. Connect the streamer to this new router with an Ethernet cable.

What I do not recommend:

  1. Wi-Fi extenders (Naim gear does not like them).
  2. Adding a long-range router right in front of the Virginia router (this causes Double NAT if you do not know how to handle it, and Naim gear is prone to this issue).
15

Virgin TV etc. will work in theory with other routers, but, you won’t get any help from Virgin. Assuming your Virgin TV box is wired to the Virgin Hub, then the best option for different WiFi is to disable just the WiFi on the Virgin box and cable in a new set of WiFi equipment and run it in Access Point mode and not full router mode. This avoids the double NAT’ing some are hung up on.

However, before doing any of that, I’d still answer some of the basic questions that have been asked on placement etc… There may be a really cheap option to fix first rather than throwing lots of kit at the problem blindly.

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16

I know the answer to this Virgin question! You will need to keep the Hub 4, but you set it to Modem mode and then you can use any router or wifi network you like. The TV doesn’t use the Hub 4. Virgin split the incoming coax so that it goes to your TV box and your Hub 4. You plug the Ethernet for the TV into the new router.

2 Likes
17

Thanks David, that sounds like an important piece of the jigsaw puzzle.

I am also trying to get Virgin to upgrade me to the 5 or 5x hub, I might need to upgrade to their 1gig service (from 500mbps).

That might help too, but I suspect it is the WiFi infrastructure that really needs to be improved.

Thanks,
Tony

18

The data rate coming into your house will not be the issue. A 4K video stream from Netflix is only around 15 of your 500 Mbps, and ALL audio streams use far less than that. A new Virgin router may help, but only if your issue is pure signal strength and not interference related. The Naim gear won’t use any of the ‘new’ stuff like WiFi 6/7 and unless you move lots of devices that can use it onto those less congested frequencies, you don’t really gain much benefit.

If your phone for example can see lots of other WiFi networks, then the issue is most likely interference based, and the best thing to do next will be to buy a WiFi scanner app to tell you what channels they’re all on… then you can try to change yours to a gap if one exists and see if that helps.

Sadly for some reason, I find the auto setting only seems to converge neighbouring routers onto the same channel, the exact opposite of what it is supposed to do.

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19

I use a Virgin hub 5 and the TV360 box with a Gig1 service. If you talk about a package and an upgrade to Gig1 contract, I bet they will be dead keen. The hub 5 plays really well with the Naim streamers and iPhone app (although I use Ethernet for all the streamers). Basically it all works all of the time. I don’t have to faff about turning WiFi networks on or off.

1 Like
20

That is probably the most useful reply so far - thank you, I am slowly getting to understand!

Tony