Put a KC62 into my lounge a few weeks back to augment the LS50 Metas (that perform fabulously in-room.).
I now find myself constantly adjusting the crossover, volume, placement as I feel like I’m listening to the sub and not the music. It’s to the point where I’m seriously considering ditching the whole setup and moving to a pair of naked R3 Metas.
Is this normal and I just need to give it time and tweaking? Or have others experienced the same? It’s really making the case for further simplicity in order to quiet the overactive mind.
If I were installing a sub, I wouldn’t dream of trying to do it by ear, as I don’t think ears readily identify when it is right and when it’s wrong, or what is wrong, until perhaps extended listening tells you something not quite right then you have to start all over again. I would use a tool like REW (free software) with a measuring microphone at the listening position. Critical would be placement relative to other speakers as well as listening position, cut-in frequency and slope to match main speaker roll off, phase at that crossover point, and of course ultimately the level setting.
i’m currently doing home demo of a REL sub - i have crossover set v low (2 ticks) as pmc’s go down to 26hz (sub to 20 hz) but i find the volume that adds fullness to classical music where there is little low bass and jazz where double bass is a key part of small groups is terrible with rock where the bass becomes overpowering. i too am doubting if i can make it work
As I understand it a double bass goes down to the low 30’s HZ and unless a rock band is deliberately distorting the sound they would not really be going lower than this but probably relying on the 50-70 Hz range to get your rib cage vibrating and give the impression of deep bass. I agree with IB that if attempting to add a sub, especially to a speaker capable of 26hz anyway, I would be ensuring my room and any room modes were minimised first. The effect the sub should give, I believe, is more about relaying the recording room acoustics than the actual instrument sounds and you don’t want your listening room acoustics to have a greater effect. Just my thoughts…
i think the issue is the volume of low bass on the rock tracks i have tried - as i mentioned everything is fine on acoustic material - classical and jazz - (by the way i believe a 5-string double bass goes a little lower.)
That is exactly why when I changed from Isobariks to my current 707’s it became obvious to me the bass was overblown in my room , so I ended up treating the room - problem solved
With Quad 2805s and a Rel 510 my current crossover/volume settings are 1/5. In my previous house they were 0/3. Both rooms are small but the new room has more size volume due to very high ceilings.
At 1/5 the bass is very well integrated almost all the time but occasionally can be too much. I am considering 1/4 or 0/4.
The crossover should be set very low and be careful on the volume - a bit too little in my view is better than a bit too much.
The Rels are really really good. If they can integrate well with Quad electrostatics - which have always been virtually impossible to integrate with subs - then your dynamic speakers should definitely be doable to your satisfaction on 95% of the music you play. Yes occasinally something has too little or too much bass…the subwoofer can’t fix the recording engineer.
To sum up…my experience is the lower the settings the better. Psychologically this is hard because you want to hear the bass you just purchased! But i think what we really want is the best overall sound.
If the fifth string is a low C yes, its fundamental reaches as low as 32Hz or so. It can be used as a ‘test’ (may the god of music forgive me) with Beethoven Fifth’s Second Movement, when it reaches the forte and double basses strike a low C. But neither on disc nor in the concert hall does that sound resemble what a sub does. Subs are made for helicopters, bombs, tribal drums. I’ve always enjoyed a lovely double bass sound on bare n-Sats.
Perseverance is the key. It took me a week or so to get a setup I could live with; then several months before I turned it down a notch as the base was beginning to erk.
I also think turn it down a bit from what sounds right when you first set it up and keep the low pass filter low so that it only comes in at really low frequencies.
I have always thought that the main point about a sub is to bring that concert hall feeling of being there and not to make noises you can only feel rather than hear.
But I think a lot of people want subs to give them slam that makes them feel the bass. So it’s not really about music at all?
My room may be a bit oddball with it being L shaped and glass on 3 sides but the fundamental for the room measured by REW was c30hz so it means any note played that is a multiple of 30hz is going to have a ‘boost’ from the room itself, which when you look at it means the frequency response is very uneven below c 200hz. Unfortunately the only way to deal with this is via bass trapping but the rewards are great (better VFM than spending money on black boxes). Sizewise the listening area of my room is roughly 8m by 3.5m and 2.4m high so is not out of the ordinary for a UK home. If you search for Amroc room mode calculator that can give you an idea where the fundamental frequency is for your room and tell you the schroder frequency which is the point where the room ceases to be boomy. It is typically between 100-200hz.
Then there are octave pedals, used to lower the frequency of a guitar, sometimes used on bass guitar to add in the same playing an octave lower, whether similar sound level or reduced for subtle underpinning. And of coiurse there are also bass synth pedals, common in prog rock.
With my system I found it had plenty of base when we had a relatively small room in Scotland. On retirement we moved to Portugal and the living room is a much bigger volume. L shaped, 10m x 10m square with 6m x 3m removed. Also the ceiling is high with open wooden beams at 6m at the highest point. The Martin Logan ESLs struggled to fill the space and base was very poor. Last year I added a pair of REL S212s. The overall sound is much improved - currently listening to Jakatta with a great beat.
I still play with the subwoofer settings and I will look into buying a microphone to improve setting up the subwoofers.
Also the current location of the speakers is not optimised. To that end I will be installing a dedicated power line with Furtech sockets in January. I’m looking forward to relocating the system to hear ho much more I can get from my current system.
Subs can do that, but for me those LFE sounds you get on movie soundtracks are nearly always totally unrealistic, whether in a cinema or at home, so it’s the last thing I’d use a sub for.
For listening to recordings at home a correctly set up sub should be barely noticeable. If it noticeably exaggerates bass, it is incorrectly set up. On the rare occasions when I’ve heard a correctly integrated sub the effect has been magical.
ChrisSU i agree completely - well said. Integration is the key…you should not hear the subwoofer. This is why i like the less is more approach (in terms of settings). Get the integration right on 95% of what you listen to. Then after that if you want more bass you can experiment with nudging the dials up very slightly.