System woes

For the last 2½ years I’ve had a listening experience that has for the most part been stressful and unenjoyable.
However, the system has sounded really good this last week and reminded me of why I invested so heavily in Naim. I’m still going to audition some alternatives but for the first time in 6 months I’m thinking the Naim kit has a chance of staying put. I’m still worried about the failure of all of my new boxes though.
I know you can’t go by price alone but both the Sugden and Bryston pre-power combos come in around the £12k mark while my 252/SCDR/300DR combo is £21k. I’m wondering now if I’m going to be underwhelmed when I audition these two combos and whether I need to go higher up the Sugden and Bryston ranges to level the playing field.

Depends where you are geographically. In the UK the Sugden will directly compete for cost performance against a 282/HC/250 I suppose. But the Bryston isn’t a GBP12k amp really. There’s the UK customs and distributor markup. It’s more like GBP9k amp with a 12k UK price tag. The cost performance of domestic gear is always going to be higher - at least in any country with a reputable audio manufacturing industry. It’s partly why so many people in the UK think British hifi is the best.

4 Likes

Different people find systems they prefer at every price level from a kaleidoscope of suppliers.

I love the sonic signature of all-Naim systems.

So for me right now, there’s only one manufacturer in my playing field.

But, yes, if you have an itch to scratch, let the home demos begin.

One thing I love about the numerous home demos I’ve done of other makes of gear is that they always remind me what is so good about Naim, and I stop wondering what dCS or Chord other brand X sounds like.

4 Likes

Yes exactly. Amazing sound and the company backs up its products if there are issues and also for the long term with 10 year rebuilds available.

1 Like

In my very humble opinion and of course if it is possible, I would love Naim to invent/develop some power supplies that do not hum but still improve the music. An impossible task? Not sure but would appreciate some feedback from Naim as I’m sure they do what they do for very good reasons.

Tim

I remember @Richard.Dane once gave a response on that. Something related to optimal sound choice and compromise.

Yes, there’s much on the forum that I’ve written on this over the years. Naim have done so much work on this over the years in conjunction with transformer makers. Essentially, the results show that it’s relatively easy to make a toroidal transformer that is less prone to buzz from mains artefacts and pollution. It would be much cheaper too as you don’t need to use such high quality steel, you wouldn’t have to do such rigorous testing and selection, and less transformers that don’t make the cut that would need to be scrapped. Only problem is, they don’t sound as good. And performance has always been priority one, so that’s always been a compromise too far for Naim. So work continues…

2 Likes

@Richard.Dane the bit I don’t get about Naim power supplies, of which I have four, is as follows. The NAPS300 is silent as is the XPS2, but of the two Supercap DR’s I have one is silent and one is noisy, yet Naim say the noisy one doesn’t have a problem.
Makes no sense to me.

No transformer will be absolutely alike in how they react to mains artefacts. That of course makes it really difficult in testing them. Naim have a special machine (I’ll try to dig out a picture for you) that tries to cover as many different “nasties” as it can, but its not exhaustive as I guess that’s pretty much impossible. You just do the best you can.

With your “noisy” Supercap, I’d bet that if you plugged it in at my house or someone elses it would most likely be quiet. Or at least it would be until my neighbour gets his welder out…

1 Like

It’s a shame Naim don’t offer a trade-in / trade-up scheme as other brands sometimes offer ….

Dealers do offer trade-in services. Or a sell on your behalf option which can work out well as some people are more happy to buy from dealers than a private sale.

3 Likes

But here’s the thing. Transformers performing well under good conditions is one thing. But when a toroid hums because dc offset or over voltage have saturated the core, it isn’t able to perform well at all. Those benefits like low flux radiation go out the window. In good conditions, toroidal perform really well. In bad conditions, they perform significantly worse than EI form factor transformers. If your transformer is humming, you are likely not getting any of the benefit of it being toroid. In fact it is worse, because lesser designs usually incorporate mitigation steps like shielding. Suddenly you have a humming toroid generating more flux than anything with no shielding.

I’m not saying it is a bad design. On the contrary, it is a good design. But very reliant on the assumption of quality mains which is something neither Naim or the customer can control that easily.

I live in Canada,where Bryston amps are made. They have a reputation here of being powerful,with a great warranty,but sorry to say “Mid-fi”. My local “high-end” dealer once had someone trade in their cubed amps on something. He said he would not even unbox them,just move them on as quickly as possible.
I have never heard a Bryston amp,but do own another Canadian made Mid-fi amp,which has been rock solid (Anthem).
Currently the Anthem is not being used,it is a 5 channel amp that i used for 7.2 home theatre at one time.

1 Like

So how can three of my power supplies be silent and one noisy?
If it’s the mains all four would hum, wouldn’t they?
Richard has offered an explanation around variability of build on the transformer itself but I still struggle to understand why just one power supply is humming without coming to the conclusion one is built less well than the others.
Now you’re saying that the resultant hum impairs performance, so not only is it annoying it’s detrimental to the sound.
This hobby used to be fun …

Naim said that a humming transformer was not detrimental to SQ.

It has nothing to do with one being “better built” than the other. They are all built to the same extremely high standard (as I said, lower the quality of steel and you may well get a less hum prone Tx, but sound performance suffers. That may be OK for other manufacturers, but not for Naim). The hum should have no effect on overall performance - the transformer is just doing its job.

1 Like

That’s reassuring @Richard.Dane, thanks.
I can hear the hum when I’m at the hifi but not when sitting in the listening position. If it’s still performing well it’s a niggle and not a problem.

Depends, there are 3 possible causes.

  • DC offset. Requires a DC blocker or isolating transformer to correct.
  • Over voltage. Requires a variac tranaformer to correct.
  • Defective loose winding on the core. Requires a replacement power supply.

The latter shouldn’t affect sound quality, but may prove annoying depending on volume. I have a non Naim power supply that is audibly noisy which I have taken it upon myself to replace the toroid as it is out of warranty - assuming Talema ever start shipping them again. I’ve been waiting for months and fallen back on a wallwart SMPS rather than put up with the sound.

One thing I will state is that misery loves company. I think the humming Naim transformer issue is overstated but everyone who’s had it posts about it giving a statistically skewed impression of the prevalence of the issue. When I worked in hifi retail I never once heard of a humming Naim transformer from a single customer. The only transformers I’ve ever had hum have been non Naim units. I know it is no consolation if you have the problem - but as far as I know, it really is rarer than the forum might lead one to believe.

Hmm! I seem to have opened a can of worms, or at least let some free.

I have owned Naim equipment for over 40 years and yes every system I have had some component has hummed. In my old active system it was the two 250’s and I had 3 Supercaps. My downstairs system comprising of a SuperNait 1 with a recently serviced HiCap DR hums a little, but I’m far away enough not to notice but when the mains are bad there is a a sort of wave hum where it will get louder for a few seconds and then go quiet and then louder etc.

But upstairs I have the compromise of sitting quite near the power supplies, I’ve thought of moving the left brain stack to the right and the brawn stack to the left but cabling would be next to impossible.

Tim

When I had Naim kit in the same house, same position and same mains supply I had some components that hummed and some that didn’t but it was hardly an issue, it wasn’t too distracting and it was worth it for the sound quality I got at the time. Unless it is much worse for others I think it’s an over stated problem. None of my chord stuff hums in the slightest however