The Atom is Amazing

If you know all of:
The signal is a 1kHz sine wave,
The transfer level of the recording to the playback medium relative to the reference level.
The voltage output of the source at its reference level.
The gain of all the amplifiers in the chain
The attenuation of the volume control
The sensitivity of the speakers
…And you are in an anechoic chamber…

Then… yes you can calculate the loudness.

Thank you. Now I understand a little bit better.
It is common explanation that the calculation of loudness you can get from the sensitivity of the loudspeaker and wattage of the amplifier. But it seems that it isn’t that simple after all.

It’s worth noting that those sensitivity values mean even less when you consider that:

  • They’re not even across the frequency band. A speaker might have one value at 1Khz and entirely another at other points.
  • The dispersion pattern of speakers differ. Some have a natural convergence or natural cancellation point at 1m distance giving grossly misleading numbers.

On top of that it doesn’t really describe actual efficiency in any way although it is often mistakenly called “efficiency”. No speaker manufacturer publishes efficiency, which if they did would be in the 1 to 4% range. Nearly everything is lost as heat in the crossover and voice coils.

Yes, I understand that, but from what I understood power headroom comes in when impedance starts to fall - to mantain the gain. If it isn’t able to provide enough power, then it goes into clipping mode? Than is why it is essential to know the impedance curve?
And I have always wondered why only at 1kHz? When you put all frequencies it becomes very complex, isn’t it?

Unfortunately when talking about real signals into real speakers there’s even more to consider, such as back emf. So, taking a simplified view of just this one factor for illustration:

When you send a step impulse to a speaker the cone starts to move rapidly outwards, and the outward movement acts as a generator creating an opposing back emf (consider this as a voltage) in the voice coil.
However the top of the square pulse is flat so the cone’s acceleration starts fast but then decreases until it reaches a limit that occurs when the forces of the suspension and the back emf equal the drive from the amp; but the cone has mass, so it continues to move forward then rings about the new balance position. When the step is removed everything happens in reverse.

Furthermore the output (and hence the negative feedback loop) of the amplifier also ‘sees’ this back emf generated by the speaker! How the amp reacts to this (and in turn subsequently changes its own output voltage) depends on the design of the amplifier! As the negative feedback loop (usually) goes all the way back the input of the amp, this can cause transient instability in the internal stages of the amplifier (including nasty things such as driver latch up). In extreme circumstances the wrong load can cause the amp to go unstable and oscillate.

So dealing with anything other than a fixed frequency sine wave depends on far too many factors.

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What about Neat Motive II, is it so demanding for Atom? I have good offer. Compare with LS50, what is better match?

So, I suppose the price of the speaker depends on how this motion is handeled. Better the speaker/driver less impact?
That’s why you don’t get the most out of the speaker if you don’t have partner in amp?

To realize after that the 252 does not have a mere pre out and I must plot a sub of €3000 that I love and perfectly complements the system given the dimensions and room modes…?

To make sure those speakers are eaten with chips by the room modes and wouldn’t come out of the bright and dull side…?

And all that after spending another fortune on a dedicated quality rack to house all them and destroy the decoration, which has taken me years to go by, of a great multifunctional room…?

No, thank you, I’ve been through that endless race of infinite change and money wasted for not doing things right, with headthinking and with expectations adjusted to reality. Just look at the endless races of many forum members and users; that if the speakers are boomy, that if they look bright, that if I don’t like it, that if I want more, that if how I keep improving now…

Totally happy with the system; I only find the actual main source limiting, yes, and surely it will be the NDX2 shortly, and a little of AC-power conditioning, surely with AQ Niagara 1200, already around the corner in Europe. And I would still bet that in its current configuration, the system sounds better in my room than your proposal in my room and in most members’ rooms.

Finally I believe that the balance must not be sought only among the components of the system, but also between the system and the room; among the system, the room and the decoration; and among the system, the budget, the hobbies and the life itself; not everything in life is HIFI, let alone make all the stuff the center of existence, to finally discover every time you go to a live concert that, by far, spending what you may or want to spend, you’re not going to be able to recreate it the same way in your living room.

Cheers.

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I have always wonder why no one is mentioning the room shape and size in the quest of the better sound???
I believe that it is not prudent to have too much details for too small room - or too musicaly powerfull system in the small room since the reflections will make sound too nervous instead joyfull.

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You are right!

Don’t be silly. The real proof was in the system they were using, that’s why they demonstrated it at the biggest HiFi show event of the year in this country. Nothing is black & white and you won’t convince me otherwise.

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20 years ago i was always analysing. Now i just put on the music and enjoy it. I have had comments that my Nait 5si was not up to par with my Dynaudio Special 40’s . Yes. I think that is why i get goosebumps on my arms and legs and sometimes tears in my eyes. My room has some sonic adjustments to reduce reverb. When i dont have to work there’s a big chance the music is playing.
Everyone’s experiencing music in a different way…there’s no right and wrong. It is and remains your cup of tea.

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In addition, I would not pay, nor drunkthatly, that money for the K6 and SN2, less considering the retailers’ margin is around 40% on the wholesale price.

It has cost me considerably less than half; you just have to be patient, wait for the opportunity and negotiate a little bit, :wink: .

Absolutely. There is no right or wrong. I was just saying that for a similar amount of money you can have a completely different kit. From all in one to all separates.
For instance I have a similar kit in my music room (see profile) but in the living room just 2 boxes (272+200). I enjoy the music in both of them, also enjoy it in my office where I have a Qb.

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I would just stick to what it says in the manual, that way you’re covered.

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Let’s like we do, the first factor imputing in SQ is the master recording of the record itself, the quality of the original source; the second, the room and the room modes. Without this clear, get ready to leave your hard earned money in endless change…

I flip out to see people out there wanting to get the most out of their thousend-thousend-currency systems using Tidal or, better, Spotify as a sources…, anyway…

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Boom :clap::clap::clap:

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Because amps have a range of impedence that are in their comfort zone. If a nominal 8Ohm speaker has a tendency to drop to 3Ohms and the amp doesn’t like that, it will struggle.

Even when the curve is entirely within the range, how quickly that curve can change also be an issue.

Finally, power increasing as impedence decreases is not universal. Valve amps absolutely will not do this. In fact they are continuous for the most part or even inverse (power increases as impedence increases).

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have you tried some different demos at dealer place? personally in a 20 k system, i have always found that 15 k electronics and source in 5 k speakers sound considerably better than 5k electronics / source in 15 k speakers. We are a lot to find that.

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I can say that I have tried some systems at dealer place, and others throughout my life since the 80s; but above all, until I set up the 5 systems at current home, I have made a journey trying different combinations of electronics and speakers at home, sometimes enjoying and others suffering them: I have tried different speakers, Q-Acoustics (Q-3050i & Q-3020i), Dali (Lektor 3, Mentor 3 & Menuet, current), Totem (Wind, Rainmaker & Mite), Pulsar Audio (Ambient D7), and finally ProAc (Tablette 10 SE, SM 100 & K6, current); and I have also tried different electronics with them, Denon (M-39, current), NAD (C356BEE), Arcam (Solo Mini & Solo Neo), Onkyo (different AVR), Marantz (SR6013 & HD AMP 1, current), Wadia (151PDac, current), Exposure (3010 S2 Integrated + Power Amp), and Naim (SN2, current), as well as different sources, from TT and CD players to different streamers.

The problem, always the same, have been the rooms modes, despite the conditioning, even specialized and dedicated in the main room. It was over when discover ProAc, JL Audio and SVS, after adjusting the electronics to the different spaces and needs, and final tuning, tweking and taming.

My HIFI stuff journey is over: a simple system in my 4-year-old’s bedroom, which already has a great look for music, and 4 systems adapted to the different spaces, with ProAc and Menuet supported by JL Audio and different SVS subs, all centralized from a Synology NAS that houses my vastly millennial CD collection for over 30 years. I think I must only improve the source, and some AC-power conditioning, in the main system, as I have pointed out; and game’s over. I don’t have any more worm, finally actually to me everything sounds like it should, and now I fully enjoy it, after my journey of more than 15 years.

In my experience, first thing in system composition and integration is speakers-room compatibility and adequacy.

Cheers.

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