Yes it is. IMHO.
Really nice post @ratrat, how you progressed from the standalone ND5XS2 then adding a nDAC and finally a XPSDR brought back good memories when I went through this.
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I think thereās quite a lot of love for the nDAC on here. For some years I ran CD5XS/nDAC/XPS DR and very good it was, too.
Roger
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Please do not think even for an instance to partner ATCs with Naim amplifiers.
You would trash your money 'n time.
Been there, done that!
Get the active versions if you 're really into them or look elsewhere you really arenāt
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nova and ATC scm11 here, not a waste of my time n moneyā¦
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Had them , loved what they did, but no, no way Iād come back.
Iād be still with you ,both make hyperexposed prat things but thatās all
Great post @ratrat - really interesting and informative post. Thanks.
Thereās a lot to be said for keeping things simple and properly set up. Decent rack, dedicated radial, PowerLines and HiLines provide a noticeable uplift providing theyāre installed properly (not touching other cables, hanging in a stress-free loop, HiLine centred and pulled back quarter of an inch etc etc). If your circumstances mean this attention to detail isnāt possible, Iād invest elsewhere.
Love the choice of music for your test tracks by the way. I suspect youād need something more powerful than a SN3 for the ATC speakers mind but thatās based on comments I have read on here, not experience.
Those PMC Twenty5.23i looks very classy, especially so in piano black.
Its a great all-rounder of a speaker. It can be beaten in some areas by other speakers but it performs very very well in most. Its diminutive size means they wonāt dominate a room in a physical sense, yet can fill a small to medium size room with ease with great sound. Domestic considerations may not be as important to you.
You may be wise to wait to hear the latest New Classic range before making decisions about boxes thoughā¦
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Iām so glad my daughter isnāt into this mad hobby as she currently passes Winchester Hifi at least once a day as she is at The University Of Winchester. If she was Iād have to cut her allowance.
Iāve been encouraging her to shop local but the birthday hints seem to fall on deaf ears!
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Obviously you are too subtleš
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The opening review was great, and prompted a few thoughts.
-
I have compared NDX2 and ND5XS2, with and without XPSDR, and taken note of the comments of others. Iād endorse consensus on a few points: -
A. Both are good sources, with the price gap about right for the SQ gap.
B. Adding nDAC is not obviously wise for the NDX2, but raises the ND5XS2 to about the level of the NDX2.
C. Adding XPSDR is a big gain for NDX2 and adding it to nDAC is a big gain for ND5XS2/ nDAC systems. I use NDX2 and would not be without the XPSDR. -
Adding a Hicap to the SN3 raises its performance noticeably. Many believe that the death of the budget pre/power combo was because the SN3/ HCDR was so good.
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Many of the ATC thread here are big fans of combining Naim and ATC. If I understand the comments correctly, you need at least a 250 power amp to compete with the amp part of the SCM40As. Some think a 250 good enough, but some (as with @PeakMan ) think you need to go further.
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The ATCs may need the more controlled amplification you get with adding a Hicap (or eventually going beyond SN3) and also need different positioning (more space?) to give of their best, but at their best should be able to out-perform the PMCs. 50s need even more space than 40s to work.
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Buying s/h may make more than one of these steps possible, possibly cutting out temporary steps along the way.
5.Adding a Hicap to your SN3 would also mean you had the Hicap available should you opt sooner or later for a 282 or even 252 instead. However, I donāt think you can mix new 222 and old Hicap.
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These are very different speakers, though both have many fans. You might find Neats and Spendors also worth hearing in your own home before spending that sort of money,
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A dedicated radial can be a great VFM upgrade (it was for me). So can getting Isoacoustic Gaias to put under your speakers.
Please tell us what you finally decide on!
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Any reason why you might be looking to move on from the EPOS 14s?
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Ridiculous!
Seriously though, we actually prefer sound character of nDAC/555PSDR to NDX2/555PSDR in our room with our system and speakers.
But itās very close, if we had not had the nDAC first I doubt weād have gone looking for one after trying NDX2/555.
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Not really moving onā¦
I donāt think I could ever bring myself to part with them.
Itās more likely we will move towards two rooms to listen in. The Epos speakers sound good with everything Iāve tried with them. But, likely, they will be partnered with Naim Olive (see profile).
Also, as likely to move things around and enjoy different things over time.
How about yours ?
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Same here really. They have been displaced by some Shahinian Compasses for the moment but might find their way back into the set up - more of a swapping in & out and as you say, can never really be parted with.
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Hi Nick
Just got home, late, and quickly caught up with todays posts.
Thanks for your thought provoking comments. With more time, soon, Iāll try to reply to the various posts tonight, including yours.
In the meantime - your points 2 + 5 relating to SN3 & HCDR - we already have this comboā in our home. (Check out my profile for all the other bits & pieces in our home). Or maybe were these general comments intended for everyone reading?
More later
KR
R
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I missed through profile through laziness - sorry, but it looks like we on pretty much the same page anyway.
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Dear @NickofWimbledon
First, thank you for kind words on the above report. Also, thanks for your considered thoughts in replyā¦
Agreed. I think we are mostly on the same page.
FYI, Iāve followed your own journey in recent times and studied your many reports. In particular the various experiments with your LP12, turntable isolation / support and phono stages.
I guess the first point is we have different start points. As we already have the nDAC in our house, this maybe causes us to consider a different approach.
My own observation is that ND5 XS2 + nDAC + XPS DR is a very fine combination. I suspect slightly better than bare NDX2, for less money. But, importantly, the DAC and PSU also allows a CD5 XS to benefit too.
To be fair, the guys at Basically Sound suggested looking at a NDX2. Iām not ruling anything out. But, various logical reasons why I didnāt : (1) We already have the nDAC ; (2) A good friend has NDX2 + SN3 and so I feel I know and understand what that comboā offers, (without having to demo this at a dealer) ; (3) In our house, we donāt yet see streaming as a primary source ; (4) Costs, relative to the approach outlined in my report. A counter argument might be box count? But Iām okay with several boxes here.
Weāve had SN3 and HCDR for a while now. Before we did this, I had been back several times - since late 2019 when launched - to listen and consider this. Itās quite a step forward from the XS2 + HC2 we used previously.
The SN3, by itself, is already very good and I would be happy with it, as it is, if unable to add a PSU.
Many have reported their preferences for SN3 with and without HCDR, which I think I have come to understand from my own experiences. When I first did this, it felt a bit like an assault on the senses. More of everything. A bit lively, maybe even too energetic. But you also get more detail, control and weight with notes. A bare SN3 is maybe a more relaxed listen, but without the positive extras. On balance, I think I prefer the SN3 with HCDR.
Yes, been reading those other reports too. The ATC range is popular amongst forum members, so that means lots of opinion and comment to read and study, if this is an area of interest. The forum is such a great resource.
I was impressed with the passive 40ās.
Iām a great advocate for finding out for your self. My own observations are the 40ās work quite well with a SN3. But, to be fair, Iāve not yet experimented with other alternative amplification. However, I would be content making any buying decisions on the basis of what I already know. Iāve been looking (for a few years) at floor-standing speaker options, around Ā£4k budget, and experimented with a few now. So, the basis for a future decision is now considered several options already. To my mind, the passive 40ās work well, (with SN3), and they are an option. Itās that simple.
No decisions are yet made, as indicated in the shared report. Time will tell.
Several ideas in thereā¦
Basically Sound organised an ATC event - last week - which was both great fun and educational. Their SCM 50A (actives), were on demoā. Ben from ATC ran the demoā session, introducing test tracks and also sharing thoughts and stories about ATC and their speaker designs. With 20+ years experience as an Engineer with ATC, working across their drive units, speaker design, manufacture and lots of anecdotes from both professional studio experiences as well as consumer HiFi environments. He was fascinated too listen to and we all learned a lot about speaker design, as well as the ATC range.
Anyway, this is what we all learnedā¦
The 40ās are a closed cabinet design. As such, less affected by room boundaries. Actually, they are pretty unfussy and can the placed up to a rear boundary.
For a 40 litre cabinet, I was actually pleasantly surprised how compact that were in āreal lifeā.
The 50ās (50 litre internal ) are a different design, using a ported cabinet. They require much more space, maybe a larger listening room (living room). At higher volumes, they sound really impressive, but move much more air. Ben suggested 4x4m is maybe a little cramped for them. So - rough rule of thumb - think maybe minimum 4.5m or even 5m square volume, (with standard ceiling height at 2.4m). Being ported, they also benefit from being a good distance away from boundaries.
Separately, Iāve made other observations - above - about the passive 40ās, concerning a strong mid range, plus an apparent difference at volume levels. They really rock, once you get to a āsweet spotā.
Sure. Very open to buying second hand. For example, we are the second owner of our 2012 nDAC, which was bought shortly after our new CD5 XS, in 2018. I think I paid about Ā£1000 at the time - to join with the CD player - and thought it an exceptional upgrade, at that time.
Project Olive - through 2021 - was entirely bought second hand.
The addition of a XPS DR, (maybe in a year of two), will need to be pre-loved, as this item is now āend of lineā. @110dB has already confirmed the new PSUās coming will not support nDAC. So, definitely in the s/h market for that option. Unless we go for the PS555, which many report is even better with nDAC and will continue in the product range, (for a while yet).
An immediate objective was SN3 + HCDR, with no thoughts for 282 or even 252. Now, more inclined to look forward to New Classic.
Yes, itās already been confirmed the New Classic items will have a completely new line up of PSUās and the venerable old Hi-Cap is now āend of lineā. FWIW, we have an Olive HC, HC2 and HCDR around our home. Letāās see what comes next, to fill those very big HC boots?
A few weeks back, I was able to listen to NSC222 + NPX300 ā NAP250(NC) ā PMC Twenty5.23i and have my own thoughts about this option, relative to Naim streamer + DAC + PSU, combined with SN3 + HCDR. I would say, my current thinking, Iām more inclined to wait to see what else comes out of New Classic, with an eye on separate pre-amps, which might suit my system progression better. There is no hurry and so time is on my side.
The idea of NSC222 + NPX300 ā ATC SCM40A (active) is attractive. But this appears (to me) as an option that requires radical surgery to my existing system and direction. Perhaps even a complete change over, with unattainable costs. So, less likely right now. Maybe one for the distant future?
In the meantime, I am content with what I have.
Again, maybe patience (and extended periods of contentment) is part of this HiFi hobby.
Have a soft spot for the Neatās. Already listened to a few, at Basically Sound and they didnāt really do it for me. Although, they have new floor standing models coming and this might be interesting to try, when they appear.
Iāve read great reports on the Spendor D7.2. Where do you stop?
I feel that Basically Sound have plenty of great options - Falcon - Neat - Kudos - PMC - ATC - Focal - and others, to select from.
I would also be fascinated to listen to the new Epos ES14N. But think this is more a sentimental curiosity. I suspect nothing will ever compare to the original 
Dedicated power - yes, done that 
This makes a very significant difference. Which you probably know. But wonāt elaborate here. Itās been reported in much more detail elsewhere.
Havenāt tried the Gaia thing yet. Although, aware, from reading the many reports. Maybe one for later.
Always happy to share. Itās all part of the joy of this forum. Watch this space 
Finallyā¦
Other thoughts are always appreciated. It prompts ideas and thoughts that might be helpful to a journey.
It is fascinating that we all do slightly different things. And the main idea in the report is this often takes time and planning to get there. āThe best things (come to those who wait)ā.
Thanks again
KR
R
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Thatās an excellent and comprehensive update -thanks. I can only agree that you are at the point where listening to options will tell you more than comments on here can - good luck!
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Thanks Nick.
Good luck with your own journey, moving towards two systems, two locations, etc.
Keep sharingā¦
KR
R
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Hi @1GiantLeap
Thank you for all those thoughts. Itās appreciated.
Not really a fan of āHiFi racksā, as such. So, Fraim - excellent as it is - is unlikely to make it, into our home. We are much more likely to adapt furniture, including creative thinking for cable management, equipment isolation, etc. Weāve been looking for a suitably proportioned āmid centuryā sideboard, which fits a specific space. But, nothing found yet and so the search continues.
Which seems to be your approach, the way you have worked with a local cabinet maker and created something thatās suits your needs, etc. Also, like the Port crates for record storage. Thatās a nice touch.
YES, dedicated mains power is installed in our house. Itās a significant and positive thing to do, which you may already know. We had the opportunity to do this, with other building and electrical work undertaken, prior to moving into this house, two years ago. Do you have dedicated mains power too?
At the moment, we are using PowerLine Lite, standard lavender and Snaicās throughout. Which works well enough and Iām content for now. In my humble option, dedicated mains power is much more significant. To be honest, having experienced dedicated mains power, Iāve not felt the need to change anything with cables, etc. At least not yet. In the meantime, my focus is adding other things, hence sharing the report, above.
Thanks for the ātop tipsā for getting best from HiLine, which is now on my radar
YES. Itās all about the music.
Actually, I spend a disproportionate amount of time thinking about just musicā¦
TBH, I would much rather chat about the music.
Which of those tracks do you like?
Do you have your own short list of ātest tracksā ?
I love music. Live or recorded.
Collecting all the bits of equipment is a just a consequence. Collecting anything is maybe a bloke thing. My best friend (wife) is very accommodating. Iām so lucky she also likes music. We also share an interest in all things design. Maybe thatās why we are best friends? But, we also subscribe to the idea that all this has to sit within a room and (a) be accessible for everyone, (whatās the point if you canāt share with friends and family)? Also, (b) not take over. So, our preference is for rooms where a ātasteful interiorā is still a focus. Often, that can lead to comprises, (with SQ). But, thatās okay
As previously, mentioned, what you (maybe you and your partner) have created in your own front room is be admired, for both the simplicity and the quality. (Thatās for both system and room aesthetic).
So, looks like your house swims in that same direction?
Lastly, we also like the PMCās in High Gloss or Piano Black finish. They call it Diamond Black. I think that would be our choice if we decided on PMC.
Good luck
KR
R
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If you decide on PMC Diamond Black finish. Then I hope you like cleaning and being very careful not to put fine scratches into the finish, while performing the cleaning. 
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