The classical music thread

Just a little more, if it’s helpful.

The Hallé version may be a reissue of the Pye Nixa, mentioned above.

Sir John truly loved this music, and rerecorded a lot of it. If you are at all interested, do try to find those last recordings that I mentioned, as they are later (and better) recordings. The ‘London Symphony’ (which Vaughan Williams said should really have been called ‘A Symphony By A Londoner’) is one of my all-time favourites from the last Century, and as good as anything written by Richard Strauss (which is intended as a compliment coming from me.)

One final attempt to spend a little more of your money. Vaughan Williams had doubts about the length of his ‘London Symphony’, and he was persuaded to chop it back fairly radically (losing about 20 minutes from the full-length one-hour original score). Needless to say, the excised parts were then lost over the years.

Then, not long before Richard Hickocks’ sudden death, he (with assistance, no doubt) unearthed the original score and obtained VW’s Estate’s permission to conduct a single performance of the newly completed score and conduct a (studio) recording, both with the London Symphony Orchestra.

Chandos made a lovely recording, available on LP or CD (with a blue/white stylised photo of Big Ben). I’ve had the CD ever since it was issued, probably a dozen years ago or more… And I’ve recently splashed out again, this time to buy it on LP.

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Very interesting. I agree the recordings I mentioned are probably the Pye Nixa as you suggest. So I have others to hunt out!

I do have the Hickox, also purchased on CD at the time of its release.

I had a very quick skim round the Amazon UK site just now, and found a 3CD EMI set of RVW Symphonies under Barbirolli. I am sure that these are the ones that I’ve mentioned within the last 4 hours of posts, but my Mac still isn’t cooperating fullly. (The have to be the right ones, though, as Barbirolli was not a Karajan figure who would sneak out a new recording if anyone so much as sneezed,!

fI anyone’s interested and can check the site more clearly, I’ll be happy to try to help.

RVW famously referred to Barbirolli as “glorious John”. He even wrote a short Flourish for Glorious John as the opening work in the Hallé’s 100th season.

Barbirolli and the Hallé gave the first performances and made the first recordings of both Sinfonia Antarctica (No7) and the 8th Symphony.

Roger

I think that RVW made it his business to get on with all the best interpreters of his music - and no doubt it made very good sense to do so, not least financially. He did not have the pots of money behind him that Thomas Beecham had (almost literally) behind him, inherited from his (ie Beecham’s late father’s patented medicine powders.)

Of course, no musician had Beecham’s flashing wit, or sometimes rather cruel sense of humour. I remember going to see - at least 40 years ago now - a virtuoso one-man show by Timothy West in London’s West End, portraying Sir Thomas.

I’ll quote two extracts (and it may help to picture in your mind’s eye Beecham in full top hat and tailcoat, twirling his baton, and making jokes at his fellow conductors’ expense.

The first was: ‘Sir Adrian Boult came to see me this evening, reeking of Horlicks.’

The other was, I think, ever more clever, as it managed to satirise two of his colleagues at once: ‘Ah, yes, Herbert von Karajan, a sort of musical Malcolm Sargent!’

PS It helps, when visualising this, to know that Malcolm Sargant acquired the nickname 'Flash Harry, as a younger man. And I think that MS was the late Princess Margaret’s favourite - make of that what you will.

@anon70766008 @PeakMan @James_C @onlyonearrow I’ve been following the thread for a while, as a fan of British 20th C music and having wished to hear some of Barbirolli’s work since @anon70766008 first suggested it in the context of the Planets many months back.

I have some Bax and Elgar conducted by Bryden Thompson (on Chandos) that I’ve had for many years and I also have a collection of RVWs work conducted by Vernon Handley. All of this is very good indeed.

As I don’t have access to a record shop selling all of this on vinyl (how I miss those days) or even CD I resorted to streaming Barbirolli/RVW in the last 24-48 hours and it is immediately different to Handley. I might proffer an initial view that Barbirolli’s version evokes something for me about the 50s, perhaps a folk memory (since I certainly wasn’t around!) learned from film and the music my parents played. I really like his interpretation. I’m planning further listening today if I can escape the demands of life.

I can also hear why these recordings would work on vinyl.

I don’t want to try to get clever in assessing why the same music sounds different under Barbirolli and Tod Handley, but…,

Do remember that Barbirolli grew up as a young man surrounded by the music of Vaughan Williams and Elgar, he knew and was on friendly terms with both composers and, in some cases, he even conducted their premiėres.

Handley got to know the music through performances of predecessor conductors such as Barbirolli, Boult. Sargent, et al.

That’s a very interesting perspective. I’m certain there is something in that. If you’re not the actual artist, who better to explain to you what was intended and possibly even for him to challenge back. A little like George Martin perhaps.

I’m sure the composer’s perspective and ideas mature as the music is played and interpreted by others.

For the RVW symphonies I do gravitate back to the Handley versions, probably as these are the versions I first listened to. Being issued on the Classics for Pleasure label, these were modern, well reviewed, recordings at a price accessible to a student income.

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That is surely true and the same goes for conductors who record/perform certain pieces of music again and often again over the years. It is also surely true that certain conductors will approach music in particular ways. One may be more dramatic, or lyrical etc. For instance, I adore Bohm’s Beethoven’s 6th others not so much. I think that Handley can be more lyrical than others but of course others will disagree. Chandos and Nimbus, Lyrita and Hyperion label recordings are always worth exploring for new (to me!) British music. And in the UK, charity shops remain a wonderful way of finding and starting these journeys ( as I don’t stream!).

For RVW symphonies, I recommend Previn. By far the best all round set.
Also the cheap to buy
set by Davis is very good.

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Hello, James, I agree that Karl Bœhm’ Vienna ‘Pastorale’ is wonderful, and almost head and shoulders above the rest, Subject to one tiny thing…

Someone once made an ‘off air’ recording (on cassette tape) of the only ever performance that the great Carlos Kleiber ever gave of the 'Pastoral, as the second par of a concert in Munich. The tape was a present for Kleiber’s son Marko. Years later, Orfeo released a copy of the tape on CD - the audio sound is dreadful, but the performance is startlingly good.

I don’t know if it’s still available but the performance was as good as the recording was cr*p.

John Dethridge caused a kerfuffle some years go now by closing this recording as his Library Choice for the Pastorale on Radio 3’s Record Review/ Building A Library .Choice.

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Hence, Beecham’s quote on hearing that Sargent was conducting in Tokyo: “Ah, Flash in Japan!”

Roger

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Yes, I managed to buy a copy of the CK Beethoven 6 and agree it was special. In fact after starting to listen to the performance, the poor quality of the sound became unimportant.

You’re right, I just didn’t want to lead anyone into making a purchase who might then regret the poor sound.

I had a train train journey years ago, which got badly interrupted by work on the line, so that was the only music that I could play on an iPhone our Walkman or whatever was that Kleiber recording. It is a very special performance - if only he could have been coaxed into a proper studio to make a sensible performance.

Oh dear, I must have been the very last on this Forum to get that one - ‘Japan/the pan’!

To be fair, it’s not one that I’ve heard before.

All this talk of RVM symphonies reminds me I have the EMI box of The Nine Symphonies with Boult conducting. I have the 7-LP set pressed in Germany.

To be honest, I’ve never really given myself a chance to wrap my head around these works, and haven’t listened to this much. I probably need to pick one symphony and learn to enjoy it, or move on a next one. But with nine I need to figure out a good place to start.

I do recall liking the London, but not getting on so well yet with the Sea Symphony.

Anyway, I’ll pulled it out and put it into the playlist bin.

At the moment I’m listening to Olivier Messiaen, Quatuor Pour Le Fin Du Temps. I have two versions, but this is the one I had first and bonded with. I still enjoy it quite a lot.

The clarinet on it is just punishing, like it should be in a Nazi Stalag.

Best classical album cover. EVER!

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I think that ‘A London Symphony’ is the best of the bunch by some considerable margin, as I would describe RVW’s symphonic as patchy, at best.

Someone once described one of them (the Third?) as ‘cow looking over a gate’ music. I’ve never quite understood that, but it has always struck me as amusing.

Good look with the new Boult set! There can’t be many of those around, completely unplayed.

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My favourite RVW symphony is No3 the Pastoral but which is actually a war requiem and inspired by his time in the ambulances around Ecoivres and his WW1 experiences. However not the easiest of symphonies and probably takes some dialling into to fully appreciate. There is one incredible moment towards the end in the hands of the right conductor.

However the best symphonies are probably the 4th, 5th and 6th. The 4th violent (“I don’t know if I like it but it’s what I meant” said the composer) - try RVW’s own performance or, for a modern sound, Pappano’s recentish release. The 5th, written at the height of the Second World war, is a complete contrast with perhaps the most beautiful slow movement written in the 20th century. The 6th is just extraordinary.

And the London symhony is a great favourite.

Strangely the Sea Symphony is probably more performed than any of them. It has some fine moments but is not his best and needs the very finest performance to carry off the final movement without becoming boring.

The last 3 are interesting - the 7th is based on his music for the film “Scott of the Antarctic”; I’m particularly fond of the Boult recording with Gielgud narrating the quotes heading each movement.

The 8th is short and fun.

The 9th remains an enigma to me although I am gradually getting to understand it - he died the night before the first recording was to be made by Boult. Influenced by Tess of the D’Urbervilles, its stock has risen over the past few years and it continues to grow on me.

I suggest starting with the London, then either the 5th or, if you’re feeling the need to be woken up the 4th and 6th (this latter probably the greatest of his symphonies). Then try the others and see what you think.

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