The dilemma of physical v virtual media

Music Room
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The recent thread on here asking “How do you discover new music”? had me thinking that the improvement in streaming which the NDX2 has brought into my life has now presented me with a dilemma.

To me the quality of music reproduction I get from Tidal has now reached the point where I no longer see any point buying, collecting and storing CD’s. Tidal is now as good as playing anything on my Naim CDI and so I can’t really see the point of buying or ripping physical media anymore. I’m out of shelf space for CD’s anyhow in the main listening room!

This means that all my recent music purchases have been on vinyl, driven by the fact that I enjoy playing records and there’s still (sometimes) a sound quality advantage to playing stuff on vinyl either because it was recorded and mastered on analogue in the first place, or because the analogue mastering has more dynamic range than any digital version.

This causes a problem though. Vinyl is just too expensive and inconvenient to buy records that you know are poorly recorded (so might as well stream) or where the album only contains the odd track you like (so playing just the bits you like is too inconvenient). So moving forward I really need to limit myself to buying records where I know I will enjoy all the tracks and where I know I can depend on the recording quality to sound good enough. Those albums tend to be legacy recordings by artists I particularly like. As an example I know that I love everything Dire Straits have ever recorded (and I already have all their output on CD and vinyl). So there’s a high probability that anything Mark Knopfler puts out I will also enjoy, so I’m still plugging gaps in the albums he has released and that’s a pretty safe bet on vinyl - even at £30 a pop!

My dilemma is that while I continually blunder across new music via various sources - radio, web, print, on here that’s usually just a single track or two by an artist and thus spending £30 on the vinyl is a risk. Buying the CD for 99p-£12 would be less of a risk, but also rather pointless. Streaming it though doesn’t really embed them into my music collection as an artist I like/own.

As an example I recently discovered Chantal Chamberland, her recordings are exquisite, but I’m still figuring out via Tidal if I like enough of her songs to buy the (expensive) vinyl albums. Just streaming her music it doesn’t really feel as if I “own” it and it certainly doesn’t feel as if she’s part of my “music collection”.

Streaming doesn’t really enable “browsing” the way that racks of CD’s or vinyl do either. Sure, I know that Tidal enables me to add artists or albums to my collection, but I love that feeling of looking through my shelves of physical media and pulling out an album I haven’t listened to for a very long time. I’m not sure that is ever going to be possible in the same way with streamed media.

I think that what this boils down to is how to quench my desire to physically own copies of the music I love. That’s a legacy of my age I think and isn’t something that for example my 19 year old daughter struggles with at all. She sees no point in owning physical copies of her media and very often she just plays odd tracks by individual artists as part of playlists. I wish (or rather my bank manager wishes) that I could be more like her!

Anybody else feel the same? Do any of you wrestle with the dilemma of what to buy or just stream? If vinyl was £5-£12 as CD usually is I would buy a lot more of it, but it’s just so expensive it means I have to be more certain of what I am buying and avoid buying on a whim.

JonathanG

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For me streaming has made life easier, not harder. I stream new releases, new artists and all sorts that I wouldn’t buy on a whim. So streaming has allowed exploration and allowed me to be more open to different music. After a little while I then buy downloads of what I decide to keep because I don’t trust streaming providers to have everything available in perpetuity, or even to stay in business. I want to own and control ‘my’ music and have it available where and when I want it. Streaming has made me buy a bit more music, but also less stuff that has been a waste.

One other perspective. My system cost a lot of money, and yours has too. Is it not a bit odd that we then niggle about £10-£30 on a hard copy or download? One or two new albums every week is still less than most significant upgrades, and I doubt most of us buy as many as that (one-two per month for me). Quibbling about music cost is a bit like buying a fantastic but expensive car, moaning about fuel prices and leaving it in the garage.

Bruce

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Streaming has certainly changed my listening (and buying) habits, probably permanently. One difference between my situation and yours is that streaming is very much second fiddle for me. My Bluesound NODE, though no competition for my LP12, is more than adequate for casual and background listening. The effect of this is that I’m much more inclined to try new music out - there’s almost no friction - and I’m less inclined to take a punt on new records. Instead, I’ll often listen to something a couple of times on Tidal and ask myself if it’s something I really need to make space for on my shelves.

My LP12 is close to Klimax level and, when everything is right, can offer an extraordinarily immersive listening experience. These days, I’ll only put on a record if I have the living room to myself and if I can carve out some time for some uninterrupted and focussed listening. A side effect of this is a certain amount of man maths – I spend less time in a typical week listening to records, and so I feel I can more easily justify the recurring expense of a high end cartridge!

When it comes to taking a punt on a record, I still make room for obscure releases: recordings that are hard to come by, that have never been digitised, and that the market doesn’t have a huge interest in.

I would probably go more all-in on streaming if it wasn’t for the deficient user experience. The Tidal and BluOS apps are very good in themselves, but they make browsing and discovery needlessly difficult. If I could order my collection with a built-in taxonomy where all my albums automatically appeared in different categories and sub-categories (genre, era, style, etc.), and I could create my own taxonomies, I’d be much more inclined to get drawn in, and work my way through related artists and styles during a listening session, but the apps offer nothing of the kind. So, for the time being, my two-tier listening approach will be the order of the day.

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Hi there Jonathan,

50 years as an audiophile I’ve spent most of that time chasing an illusive dream of completely immersive, fully engaging, 100% convincing music. Almost unbelievably I reached my goal and beyond by constantly refining a local and remote streaming system. For most of my years I found the best vinyl to outperform the best digital, but with my streaming system I managed to outperform vinyl in every audiophile aspect, to the point I sold my substantial vinyl collection and system because there was no longer any point in using a medium that was extremely ‘fussy’ but sonically inferior. I kept my CD collection simply to comply with copyright requirements.
I would qualify the above by saying that I probably spent as much on my streaming system as I’d previously spent on high-end vinyl replay. Most people never spend anything like as much as I did on streaming vs their alternative media so comparisons tend to favour the medium they’ve focussed on.
All that being said, what I also found was that remote streaming using some really good software like Innuos’s Sense SW was orders of magnitude more effective in finding music I liked. Let me give you an example
I log onto Naim’s music forum and read a post from someone saying how much they like a particular artist that I also greatly appreciate. They also provide some favorite tracks and the names and tracks of some other artists they also like. I make a note of these alternate artists, go into my streaming system, type in the artists’s name, select the identified track and take a listen. If my reaction is a ‘Wow’, I go back into the SW and click ‘Favorite Tracks’. If I really like many of the tracks I have several choices….I can save the selected Favorites into a Playlist, which then becomes one of ‘My’ playlists or I can select the album from which the track comes and save the Album to ‘My Favorites’ so it becomes part of my personal music library. So at the click of a button I can discover a new artist, listen to a selection of other peoples’ favorite tracks and have direct access to the artists entire catalogue. If I like an album but find one or two tracks I dont really like, I simply delete them, so I can edit an album. Same for any Playlist I’ve stored.
Finally the SW would throw up a bunch of similar music that the SW algorithm selects based on my own music library and that of others. A simple click is all it takes to see if my personal tastes concur with the algorithm.
Streaming was by far, BY FAR the best way I ever found to broaden my listening horizons, without having to buy and listen to music I didn’t enjoy

So bottom line for me……Music streaming provided the highest quality replay I have ever been able to achieve (at a cost), while giving me the ability to discover all sorts of new music and preserve it for future enjoyment with no concern for ££££s or storage space. I was literally in audio paradise with an endless supply of music I loved ….until I woke up one morning to find I’d permanently lost hearing in one ear, so that part of my life is no more but it was utterly great while it lasted. Fortunately it’s been replaced with other equally joyful activities so no need for sympathy, although I really do miss the music. YouTube videos just aren’t the same

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Hi Blackmorec

That’s a great description/reminder of your history of music listening.

I wonder whether you literally unexpectedly woke up one morning with complete loss of hearing in one ear, or whether this process was more gradual or there were any warning signs?

Do you have any idea why this happened?

I’m trying to learn how to avoid this happening to me.

I’m 60 and have slight loss of high frequencies in my left ear.

I went all in on digital streaming (Qobuz) about 5 years ago and have no TT or CDP.

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I follow your dilemma but just to point out you mentioned buying records at £30 a pop, I buy a lot of records which are a lot less, I bought 3 new records this week at £12, £15 and a a blue Note Classic for under £20.

Also you mention the forum favorites “Dire Straits” but there is so much NEW music out there that has been well recorded and can sound similar or a lot better in cases to streaming.

What I do share is when do you buy a digital download, stream or the physical format of a vinyl record. Sites like Bandcamp and Bleep help as you also get a Hires download.

End of the day it’s about the music and I think we live in a golden age with multiple format and the world of music at our fingertips with streaming.

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The same thing happened to me in spring 2020, when I lost the hearing in my left ear. I now have cros hearing aids and so long as I sit off axis I can enjoy the music as much as I ever did. If you want to know more about this, feel free to ask Richard for my email.

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I have Qobuz Sublime, which lets me listen to new stuff and add to favourites. It it’s something I like and play a lot, I’ll then buy the download. Hopefully the artists get some of that payment, as what they receive from streaming is minuscule. I went to a jazz gig last week and bought a CD from the band. It cost me £10, which is less than it costs on Bandcamp. I like doing this, you get to chat to the artists and provide direct support that artists really need.

With a hifi that costs multiple thousands of pounds, it seems churlish to quibble about £10, £20 or £30. Without the music, the hifi is pointless.

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I find Bandcamp and Qobuz are great for discovering new artists or albums, both though encourage me to buy more LPs. As for whether vinyl is better than a rip, a download or streaming, I think it depends on the music and I am often left thinking it is about being slightly different rather than better or worse. That being said, sitting down to listen to an LP with coffee, tea, beer or a glass of wine etc, does sometimes make it feel like I am indulging in a familiar ritual and possibly adds to the enjoyment in a way that using the app to select an album can’t replicate. Conversely, I love that I can stream rips or Qobuz to the bedroom system or use my phone in the car to listen to music that I couldn’t if I only had the vinyl. Having physical media and virtual media for me is like having your cake and eating it.

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Yes, I do share your views here. However, I think the belief that LP records are overpriced is because we remember when they were so much cheaper in money terms. I remember buying my early albums with money saved from various Saturday jobs in the mid 70s when an LP would cost ~£4. I’ve just put this in the BoE inflation calculator and found that £4.00 in 1975 would be £30.37 in October 2024.

On that basis I’m just off to Amazon to pick up some Black Friday bargains!

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I have, like so many of us on here, 3 source options, Vinyl, CD and Streaming.
Naturally, since car manufacturers dropped CD players from cars, I have streamed music for a long time. My HiFi preference has always been Vinyl, although I did go CD for a while and have now picked up CD listening again.
Once I bought a proper HiFi Streamer, ND5 XS2 and then NDX2 with XPS, I found that it soon became my primary source. This was for 2 reasons, pure convenience and availability of music I didn’t own.
As has been said by several above, the ritual of listening to physical media is still something I love and I’ll be honest, I think I prefer the SQ.
Once I find great music on Qobuz, which is my Streaming source, I will frequently buy it. However, I no longer have a hangup over Artists reimbursements. The other major streaming services, Spotify, Amazon, Apple Music, continue to be the largest share of music providers to the masses and using Qobuz does leave me feeling less guilty due to there better attitude towards Artist payment.
This is a long and rambling way of saying, enjoy the music the way you want and can financially support. You, as a listener, are not responsible for the deals that Streaming Sevices make with Artists and the future of physical media is probably fairly bleak. It will eventually disappear, maybe not in our lifetime, but it’s not far away…:man_shrugging:t2:
Enjoy the music, it’s what they make it for😉

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Roon might help; works for me, but we’re all different…

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You can of course buy files and download, the you own a copy of the music that you may keep in perpetuity, with the right to play whenever you like. It is not physical, but it is yours. You can’t see the file as such, but you can view its details, which can include pictures and sleeve notes etc. That is what I do, or buy a CD and rip. Sometimes I do miss the physicality and pleasure of handling a nice LP sleeve, I do not miss CD inserts at all as they were too small to be enjoyable in their own right, with the exception of opera libretti booklets, which I have retained in the listening room.

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@JonathanG - great thread. For years (the 70s) I’ve been old school, LP, FM, and CD in that order of (sonic) preference. Then 6 years ago I bought a Muso Qb for the kitchen area and streamed from Tidal as well as FM radio which I found really great late particularly late at night for randomly selecting stuff.

Then a few months back mindful that my fantastic CDS3 wasn’t going to last forever I took advantage, slightly reluctantly, of the trade in scheme and with the support of the excellent Phil @Cymbiosis I took delivery of a NDX2 and QNap and the process of ripping 600+ CDs started.

What a revelation! Sonically it outperforms the CDS3, seriously, but not only playing (FLAC>WAV) into the QB is oodles better. Metadata is a challenge with classical and requires attention but once done is done.

Still love vinyl and buy the odd item, but run out of storage, but overall my digital listening has now exceeded analogue. I have replaced Tidal with Qobuz for trying things out but if I like I buy on download, I still like the ownership and the local files very considerably outperform Qobuz (at least to these ears), so I think not a dilemma more the best of everything!

Regards,

Lindsay

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Just bought a pop corns box. Waiting when some will start to say how digital is better vs analog. :joy:

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Digital is better than analog.

At least in that it takes up less space.

:roll_eyes:

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Enjoying vinyl although I am very circumspect on what to new LP’s I buy, mainly just playing and listening to what I already have and that is perfect at the moment.

My CD’s are now all ripped to a SSD drive and accessed via the 222, the physical form is boxed and in the garage.

But streaming, hmm, still only on Apple Music via Airplay, just don’t seem to have time to enjoy a Tidal or Qobuz subscription so why sign up for something I am rarely going to listen to.

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I went to bed with a broad grin on my face, having just heard the effects of running in a new SR Galileo Ethernet SX cable. I slept brilliantly, with the usual middle-of-the-night pee and awoke around 7.00 to notice immediately that my ears felt blocked with a strange ‘rushing’ sound. I got out of bed and immediately fell back into bed as I had absolutely no balance whatsoever.
I got downstairs by holding onto everything with 2 hands and by the time I arrived in the kitchen I was dry retching.
The cause, unbeknownst to me then was sudden sensorineural hearing loss, likely caused by a viral infection which interrupts the blood flow to parts of the cochlea and cochlea nerve. Defined as a medical emergency, SSNHL is treated with high dose steroids to reduce inflammation and swelling and restore blood flow before cells die. Unfortunately my Doctor was not aware of this treatment protocol and recommended ear drops, which had no effect whatsoever other than to make my good ear deaf. An audiology evaluation revealed a -100dB loss in my right ear, so now I have absolutely no directional sense, which means that the stereo illusion no longer works.
So, there’s nothing much to avoid. Just know that if you do ever wake up and find your hearing altered, take yourself off to your local hospital ENT department without delay and see a specialist.

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Thank you so much for telling us that story.

Very sorry to hear what happened to you.

I always have enjoyed reading your posts, and your dedication to striving for superb sound quality.

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Other than with Tidal Connect the suggested playlists created and user playlists selected on the styles and genres you have listened too is a fantastic type of browsing that you can do via streaming… it’s kind of like a shelf of titles that the record shop proprietor thinks you might be interested in and you try out in the listening booth.
I have discovered so much music and many artists this way… it’s become quite addictive.

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