The myth of burning in?

Hi-Fi Corner
101

Sorry if I missed part of what you were saying, as usual it is difficult in a fast-growing thread to keep in mind every previously stated position, as much as everyone is trying.

Part of the problem is, I think, that everyone for whom it is quite easy to do may have ulterior motives (like reducing returns), and at home I find it hard. Changing out cables in my system requires the skills of a contortionist, which I don’t have, and leaves me huffing and puffing. I have a hard time telling you what day it is after that. Which is one part of why I love being with Naim

102

Pete. That’s the absolute truth. Just listen to the music. Forget every thread for just a moment and go to What am I listening to. The contributors to that thread including yourself are genuinely passionate about the music and want to share it with others.

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103

Yes, but since many years and many many components or cables I bought, I observe the same improvement.

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104

There are always a lot of voodoo stories going around on these types of forums, it’s part of the experience. On some of the audiophile forums people are convinced that there is an audible difference between €2000 and €5000 speaker cables, and on other forums people argue that in blind listening tests most people can’t hear a difference between a 320kb mp3 and a 24bit/192k flac. They can’t all be right ofcourse, at least not objectively speaking, but the nature of the beast is that there is no way to prove either way.

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105

I am well aware of this (and of people finding a difference in €1,500 ethernet cables) which makes it only more interesting, in particular if you are skeptical (my first words in this thread), sit down in front of a new amp that has been playing for a few days and nights, and suddenly in the middle of the listening session there is the very distinct perception that it changes its character and starts to sparkle without any obvious reason

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106

As the OP can I just recap. I have bought new speakers c/w new cables. I am happy with that decision. However the advice I have received is they will not sound at their best until I have run them in for 50/200 hours. So I am playing the game and seeing if that’s true. Will report after 100 hours.

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107

:+1:

It would seem entirely plausible to me that many speakers do benefit from some run in time, to loosen up the dampers/suspension and some of the other stiffer materials. Amplifiers perhaps a bit less so, although a prolonged warming of the coils/internals and running currents through them for some time could very well have some noticeable effect. Speaker cable run in feels a bit more like voodoo to me, but who knows!

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108

While I don’t disagree, I’ll repeat that the company you are buying stuff from …

  • … insists that the direction makes a difference in all their cable products, and there is the story (possibly apocryphal?) that they detected in the mandatory listening test, which they perform with a piece of cable from every new cable drum, that one cable drum had been marked in the wrong direction by the manufacturer’s staff.
  • … built a machine to shake cables because it makes them sound better although they have no clear idea why
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109

Well perhaps that wouldn’t be so far out, even when trying to stay sceptical. If they have maximized the flow of electrons in one direction from the start to the end connector, then it could make a real difference if it’s connected the other way round.

But when music is playing during a run in period, then the amount of current going through is so relatively small that i can’t see how that would change the physical properties of the material.

110

Sure, but there is no shortage of people who insist that “maximized the flow of electrons in one direction from the start to the end connector” is pure voodoo.

But when music is playing during a run in period, then the amount of current going through is so relatively small that i can’t see how that would change the physical properties of the material.

Also sure, but (sorry) I amended my post with the cable shaker while you were replying. If I am to believe that shaking the cable makes it sound better, with Naim admitting that they don’t know why, but that a listener would pick the shaken one every time in a blind test, then I have little in the way of defenses against small currents making a difference for no known reason

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111

I am not an engineer, but from another website:

"Yes, there does seem to be a directional influences on the fidelity of transmission. This includes single-ended transmission as well as balanced. All conductors and transmission formats Zu has experimented with, from metals to rocks, exhibit directionality and signal fidelity changes. There are influences of the conductor structure and there are influences of the insulators which means that nearly all wires or cables will sound better in one direction or another. In some, direction can be reversed, others can’t. Some are the result of design and implementation, like grounding shield at only the load end, others are the net result of signal propagation. "

I have no idea to what extent that translates to audible effects, so for me that would still border the voodoo category yes…

That is certainly interesting yes, although i do have a feeling that prolonged shaking of a cable would have more physical effect on the material than playing music through it…

(brb - going to thoroughly shake up all my cables now)

112

There is also no shortage of hifi companies making the wildest claims without proof that make even QAnon feel ashamed. I have gems too:

Vortex Hifi (I nearly wrote “Voodoo Hifi”), Google translation from German:

"And again the Vortex HiFi research has turned the (HiFi) world upside down. Technical devices such as cell phones, laptops, computers or routers, which have hitherto greatly impaired listening to music, are now promoting sound using new Vortex HiFi technologies. There is a reason. The radiation emitted by these devices no longer disturbs the organism where they previously disturbed, but improves its function in some cases dramatically!

Here are 3 examples of how the new oscillation alignment technique reduces the “money roll” effects and thus dramatically improves blood circulation:

[2 pictures of red blood cells, stuck together in the first, looser in the second]

Caption: Blood normally sticks together under the influence of high frequency but also low frequency radiation. Cell phones or other HF emitters are therefore actually a no-go when listening to music from a sonic point of view, because the capillaries in the inner ear cannot pass the blood sufficiently on to the auditory cells. With our unique oscillation alignment technique we dissolve this blood adhesion and the hearing process is not disturbed."

Yes, seriously. So, quoting hifi companies is let’s say unreliable.

That is certainly interesting yes, although i do have a feeling that prolonged shaking of a cable would have more physical effect on the material than playing music through it…

Well, my view is that I can impossibly do the tests, so I rely on Naim because I like the end result, their systems. But frankly if you believe one there is no reason not to believe the other, they are all just as … weird.

(brb - going to thoroughly shake up all my cables now)

172 times on one end and 172 times on the other end, please.

114

If the speakers are brand new then I would expect there to be some bedding in, which may make an audible difference (unless the manufacturer soak tests the speakers for that sort of time - I know some amplifier manufacturers soak test their amps for many hours, though I don’t know how many, but I’m not aware of speaker manufacturers doing likewise). Whether you perceive any changes to sound not accounted for by the mechanical bedding in of course may depend on physiological effects and/or psychological influences.

The last time I bought speakers brand new was 45 years ago: I don’t recall any noticeable change over the days/weeks/months that followed - they just sounded wonderful every day!

115

I don’t know if he/they have a view on the concept of “burn in”.

However, the designer of my amps did specifically advise me that running the amps 24/7 would result in the need to service/re-cap capacitors significantly earlier than if they were switched off (set to stand-by) overnight.

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116

Hehee, well i personally don’t really buy into a lot of the exotic stories about hifi so i try to avoid jumping into the rabbit hole too deeply. I can certainly imagine that some of the stuff we are told about our equipment has a basis in reality, but even then that does not mean that it also translates to something that we can actually (objectively?) hear.

Just gave my left speaker cable a good shake and it does sound a lot better now though. :partying_face:

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117

:+1: Thank you

118

My subjective experience suggests that none of the individual voodoo-like optimizations on their own are so big that I can easily pinpoint them, nor always so small or inexistent that I can with certainty dismiss them, but when all are taken together, from “good” cables in correct directions and properly dressed, microphonics adressed, “run in”, and so on and so forth, the result seems to be clearly better, more open, more flowing and natural music playing.

Maybe just because I feel relaxed after what was a lot of work and I did what I could, or because there are indeed small improvements that add up. I don’t know, but in any case it seems inevitable in order to feel satisfied.

Being happy with the system is the most important thing, but it always stays interesting to think about these things. The fact that most hifi freaks probably were told more than once in their lives that this or that could not possibly make any difference and then this turned out to be obviously wrong, makes it difficult for many to dismiss seemingly crazy stuff outright

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119

There is an interesting complication here in the form of a third mode between completely off and completely on. Would be interesting if this manufacturer does something more in standby than keeping a small PS active

120

It’s always about the journey, not so much the destination!

‘And maybe the real treasure was the friends we made along the way.’ :yum:

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121

Not hifi, but a interesting commentary about the strength of the placebo effect.

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