that was an interesting read. Thanks. 
I think I was a little sloppy with my answer and wording of âaudible spectrumâ as the filter I was describing is intended to mitigate RF interference much higher than the 22kHz OP mentioned.
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Where the difference becomes large is on cheaper low end DACs like listening via your iPhone or entry level Walkman etc.
Itâs a lot simpler for a DAC to reconstruct a hi res data source into analogue than it is for it to do a decent job of a lower resolution data source. High end DACs do a lot of heavy lifting to reconstruct 16/44 data and effectively fill in by inferring information accurately (ish). That closes the gap significantly with hi res sources.
But on a dirt cheap audio player, the difference sounds huge. Not so much that high res sounds better as it is 16/44 sounds worse.
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Interesting - I wondered about the popularity of hi res on phones etc, thinking it would be pointless.
Oddly enough itâs the same with video too. A cheap $70 blue ray player looks pretty good playing a BRD but stick in a DVD and itâs blocky and nearly unwatchable. Which is because after unpacking the data it does very little processing on it. Whereas a top end Pioneer player makes an old DVD look like a slightly smoothed out HD picture.
While video and audio reconstruction share almost nothing in common, the root cause of both issues is the same; lack of additional âworkâ processing on the source data.
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I use Qobuz (it was a gift) and usually see an infinity of unknown artists and covers flow before my eyes but never find something of interest. I am starting to suspect that I have simply heard too much music in my life and am now saturated.
Is there anyone else convinced that good music is not an infinite amount and that we simply canât have music at our disposal 24/7/365? That audiophilia has created a creepy sort of sonic bulimia?
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I certainly donât believe good music can be is infinite - if nothing else, there are a finite number of combinations of notes possible in any given length of music, and many combinations are discordant (witness a lot of modern âpopâ musicâŚ).
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Thread has briefly spoken about filteringâŚ
I think this IS a significant part of the equation when choosing formats (on respective playback equipment)âŚ
ie most modern cheap stuff,⌠(DAC wise) as already mentioned, is aided by having hires, as it sounds more akin to good CD format on âbetter kitââŚ
Of course before the market moved to using âbuilt for phone DAC chipsâ and SABRE with on chip filtering that favours DSD formatâŚ
External filter chips like the PMD100 was what was evolving the sound⌠(CD as a 16bit format was doing âairyâ 20bit sound)
Nowadays I would chose the format I listen to based on DAC being used,âŚ
A nice R2R DAC and 16bit 44khz Pulse Code Modulation is my preference (my whole collection),⌠but a budget part using a SABRE DAC? I would use DSD and/or an âon the flyâ conversion to DSD (eg Onkyo HF Player software on an Android device) to bypass poor quality PCM filters.
16bit 44khz is transparent enough to enjoy (on lovely kit), and I parrot the above comment that âgood musicâ>âgood masteringsâ>best format.
Follow your bliss⌠(but know thy equipment and ITSâ preferences)
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I often think of painting analogies and I think that holds quite well in this context. I see modern art I would describe as visually discordant for the sake of the artist producing something different from what has gone before. On the other hand, is there only a finite number of paintings of vases of flowers that are worth seeing?
The problem for me with new music is the volume of it and sorting the artists who are motivated by their artistic vision (and worth hearing even if not ultimately to your taste) from those who are not. Streaming services havenât created that problem but they have probably exacerbated it.
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It almost certainly wonât be from the same master. A distribution master these days may commonly be 44.1/24 48/24 or 96/24, a several variants may be created for distribution, but typically that may involve down sampling from the mix production master.
I do agree for replay 44.1/24 can be and usually is wonderful. For these days of YouTube distribution, however, 48/24 is more common, simply because of the video / sound formats used
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That is Microsoftâs gift to the world and with EDGE/Bing itâs even worse - I have to rent something that is driven by advertising over user utility.
I used to have the same trouble in HMV - if I hadnât gone in with a specific purchase in mind!
You cant consume a service for nothing, unless you are exploiting somebody. You either pay by subscription/licence or pay by advertising⌠or if you have to pay by both for a service, change the service.
Yes the web has become a major shopping high street⌠which for those involved with setting up the early web commerce systems was exactly our intent⌠it would revolutionise retailing⌠and I think 30 years later itâs fair to say it has⌠something I am personally really proud of to have played a part of.
In terms of browsers, if you wish to use private browsing and not be bombarded with tracked advertising such as from Google and Bing⌠then use
If you use their private browser it is fascinating to see how the most innocuous web sites that are trying to track you⌠for advertising and targeting.
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âIf youâre not paying for the product, then you are the productâ
Seems particularly true in the modern world. That said, I remember (I think) Stephen Fry writing about the BBC decades ago, pointing out that their job was delivering programmes to the audience, whereas the job of commercial TV is to deliver an audience to their advertisers. The latter seems even more true for modern web services.
Mark
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Yes, but there are notable exceptions⌠Channel 4 has a legal public service remit, albeit funded by advertisers⌠I think this is a good model that ensures diversity and not a simple race to the bottom
But I agree about web entertainment services⌠but slowly regulation is catching up, as they increasingly get treated as a regular commercial entertainment service provider.
There have been some eye watering fines in 2023, and I think we can expect to see more in 2024⌠HNY
And yet, it is not enough anymore. We often pay for something and become the product. I started to be annoyed at how things were pointing at more than twenty years ago, when I noticed that rented and bought DVDs had advertising before the show. If paying a fair price for any given product was enough, and mutually accepted by both parties, it would be perfectly ok with me. But itâs not so. Not anymore. And these trends - power to the wealthiest - never turn backwards without (real or metaphorical) blood.
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Thank you @Simon-in-Suffolk , I do get your point on the different distribution masters which is why I find it difficult to know if I am comparing like for like with different bit rates etc.
My comments were based on the Sound Liaison recordings - my understanding being that they are recorded in DXD 352 (mostly) and then down sampled to other formats. Again, it is an assumption, but the master is the same source in all cases.
Of course I may be wrong but to my ears at least, I do not perceive any real difference between them. When I think I hear a slight difference, I am not convinced that it is not placebo or expectation bias.
I should say at the outset that I am format agnostic, I use and enjoy Tidal streaming, CDâs, local rips of CDâs streamed and vinyl. If youâd asked me which format I think I sounds best I would have said I find it very music dependent - in short sometimes vinyl sounds better (especially on my 70âs/80âs rock/pop records) whereas I find most modern recordings and classical seem to sound best either on CD or streamed.
Much as I love vinyl I was the first to admit that its care regime, pops and clicks, inherent compromises technically and overall cost mean that over the past 20-30 years I have generally purchased music on CD and only recently dipped back into vinyl again to give me some new records to review turntables and cartridges with.
A couple of weeks ago though I had the opportunity to sit in on a very special âChasing the Dragonâ audiophile recording session at Air Studios. This was only the third time I had set foot in such a studio and if I had my life to live again Iâm pretty sure I would like to have been a recording engineer - I love these places!
The recordings were taking place in the biggest of Airâs studio spaces (Coldplay were in the smaller one!) with the ensemble Interpreti Veneziani recording various pieces by Vivaldi. I was able to stand in the large hall with the musicians during rehearsals and then move back into the control room to hear the sound coming off the Neve desk into the huge custom built Dynaudio monitors that were set high on the wall above the window into the recording space. I also had the chance to listen to the 24/192 feed off the digital recorders via Sennheiser HD800S headphones. Since the session I have been sent the 24/192 download files from the recording.
Now Chasing the Dragon donât do things by halves, ultra high end Nordost audiophile cabling was everywhere. Mike Valentine uses a range of incredibly expensive and rare vintage valve microphones in his own custom array and he believes strongly in recording to the medium he intends to sell.
So the 24/192 downloads will be taken directly from the 24/192 recordings I heard at the session
CDâs will be produced from these too
Reel to reel two track tapes will be taken from a dedicated 8 track 2" Studer recorder in the control room coupled direct to the Neve desk.
Vinyl will be pressed from a stamper made from the direct cut lacquer which was created live as the session took place. The vinyl thus has not come from a digital or tape master but is one generation closer to the cutting head and entirely analogue. The sound of this was being monitored on ATC SCM150âs in the cutting room and to me they sounded better than the Dynaudio main control room monitors.
The sound in room with the musicians as you can imagine was the reference - and these are incredible musicians at the top of their game. It sounded utterly sublime!! The direct cut nature of these recordings puts them under a whole lot more pressure because thereâs no going back, no editing and no second chances. Blow a note and they need to start again from the beginning.
On the day I was hugely impressed by the detail I heard from the 24/192 recorders on those wonderful Sennheiser headphones - the sound was incredibly transparent - almost with heightened detail frankly although didnât capture all the hall ambience or the feeling of air in the room moving. I could however hear the lead violinist sway as he played in front of my eyes through the window - it was uncanny. I was slightly less of a fan of the Dynaudio monitors in the control room, they seemed to slightly soften the sound and were a shade less immediate.
Iâve since had the chance to play the 24/192 mix which was sent to me and that is stored as a local rip on my NAS. Replay system is the new full 300 series system (in on review) including NSS333 streamer connected by ethernet driving my ATC SCM40âs.
Make no mistake this is a sublime recording - one of the very best in my collection and I was struck by the fact that the sound I am hearing in my listening room is a very close approximation to the sound I heard through the ATC SCM150âs in the cutting room - but it doesnât have the clarity and incisiveness of the Sennheiser HD800âs that day (probably due to my room effects) or indeed quite the sense of low level hall ambience I could hear when I stood in the room with the musicians. As I listened I became more convinced that some of the other vinyl chasing the dragon recordings in my collection sound betterâŚ
So I grabbed a copy of Vivaldi in Venice and also their Four Seasons recording and stuck it on the GyroDec/SME IV/Audio Technica ART-20 into Trichord Dino Mk3 with NC power supply and played it back. Sonically this sounded closer to the transparency and immediacy of live performance I remember when standing near the musicians. Now do bear in mind that the four seasons is the same musicians, recorded in a different studio at Air but using the same microphones in the same array. I am thus to a degree comparing apples with pears here because the venue and programme material are different. The true test will be when I get a vinyl copy of Vivaldi in London in around 3 months time (due pressing delays).
But the difference in the feeling of this being a live performance in my room is significant. The shock to me is that vinyl seems to trounce 24/192 even replayed by a top flight streamer from a local file. Thereâs no way in hell I would have predicted that, but it does point to the inherent superiority of analogue as a format provided it is done properly (i.e. direct cut and then mastered and pressed with great care). It would seem that something is being lost in AD and then DA conversion that isnât happening when the signal path is all analogue.
I went back to Mike Valentine with my general thoughts and expressed my surprise at the superiority of vinyl and his response was âNobody has yet made a cow from a beefburgerâ and I really think he is right. Dicing up and mincing an analogue sound wave does seem to damage it in such a way that the original cannot be fully re-constituted. Mike made clear that his preference is for reel to reel, then vinyl, then 24/192 everytime and I have to say that I have gone from being sceptical to being convinced he is rightâŚ
For all its inherent limitations Iâm actually starting to believe that my GyroDec is my best source - especially with the sublime ART-20 in the system. That cartridge has an uncanny ability to deliver sparkle and excitement - the sheer exuberence and hairs on the back of the neck thrill of live performance. To be honest before this experience I wouldnât have claimed it was definitively better than even my NDX, never mind an NSS333âŚ
What is impressive is that the sound of the 24/192 replayed via Naim hi-fi is so close to what I heard in the control and cutting rooms that day through some pretty big monitors. What it lacks is some of the sparkle I heard when standing in the hall with the musicians and some of the hall ambience. The Sennheiser HD800S did reveal more detail too.
Conclusions? Well definitive conclusions will have to wait until my vinyl copy arrives, but I now know (as I long suspected) that I need a set of Sennheiser HD800S in my life - theyâre likely the only thing I can afford that come close (and in some ways better) my ATCâs.
It was a very interesting experience and is as near as I have yet come to being able to directly compare live with recordings made to various formats. Expect a more detailed article on Soundstage in due courseâŚ
JonathanG
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Very detailed and informative write up. You are obviously best placed to comment on various formats wrt the live performance.
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