Well, some really interesting contributions here. The split between live and recorded is far more even than I anticipated! I have to say that I have been to half a dozen gigs in the last 18 months at small (Max 200) venues and thoroughly enjoyed them all, both sound and atmosphere. The music has been either folk or pop/rock, so nothing too demanding, but always good to come home to the Naim system!
This is an interesting discussion. “Sound Quality” is a multi-faceted, multi-dimensional subject, as revealed by the posts above. As mentioned by the OP, is SQ simply a measure of a replay system (hifi) to accurately replicate a recording? Or perhaps SQ also applies to the finished result of the recording process? As has been mentioned, the sound technician has some control over the SQ in a live venue. In the case of an orchestral performance the concert hall surely affects SQ. If listening to speakers at home, presumably our room contributes to SQ?
We have all heard uninspiring recordings of better than average SQ, and perhaps many of us have favorite records that depict an inspiring musical performance but with less than average SQ. A live venue, even when SQ is substandard, can be memorable when the band is “at one” with the audience.
What about the enjoyment or engagement, etc., which we feel when listening to music on or hifi at home? I often think of the “sound” as separate from the performance or the composition. It is tempting to say one can experience the “Music” separately from listening to the “Sound.”
Charlie
A few years ago my wife got tickets for an Elton John gig at Weybridge Mercedes World (ie, for those that don’t know the venue, it’s an old airfield).
The SQ was execrable despite our quite expensive tickets, which put us 100 yards or so back from the stage. The real killer SQ-wise though was that there was a group of security guards about 10m from us and their walky-talkies were going full pelt with the sort of inanities that bored security guards swap with each other on such occasions. It went on all through the concert, often louder than EJ himself and no-one seemed to be at all bothered (except me!).
Whereas if someone has a coughing fit as the conductor raises his baton at a classical concert, he will usually lower it again until all is silent…
Mind you you can also get terrible acoustics at some classical venues, the worst I can recall recently was St John’s Smith Square in London which was used as a substitute for the Queen Elizabeth Hall during the latter’s refurbishment. I heard Ingrid Fliter playing the Chopin preludes there and we had very good seats but the sound was just dire. When she patted the Steinway Concert Grand in appreciation at the end, as she does, it felt like she should be giving it a farewell pat before they gave it a decent burial. But I’m sure it was the hall not the piano.
Best
David
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I seem to recall a similar discussion on the erstwhile forum. For what little they may be worth, a summary of my thoughts.
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As many have pointed out above, the classic hifi reference of ‘sounds just like the musicians are playing in the room’ makes little to no sense outside classical and perhaps some folk rock contexts. What could be the equivalent for, say, techno music? I don’t see how there could be one, so you just have to fall back on the only sensible rule in hifi (possibly in life generally): ‘whatever you personally prefer’.
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One of my preferred genres is renaissance choral music - surely a dead cert for the ‘sounds just like the singers are in the room’, right? Yet when I’ve heard (just to pick one of very many examples) the choir of Merton College in their acoustically famous chapel, high sustained soprano notes often lead to pain in my ears as the notes coincide with human aural sensitivity. When I listen at home, if I experience the same thing, I regard it as a Bad Thing and blame the recording/system. Is that fair? Perhaps not, but if I don’t enjoy it, I don’t want to hear it from my system.
Mark
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I agree with the original statement as I find the atmosphere of a gig can be distracting. It is the music that interests me. If the audience sits silently during the performance and listens to the music as in classical or most folk concerts then that’s great, but often they are not. Of course, we’re all different and some folk do enjoy loud rock concerts.
Because that is how it sounds best. Rock music simply doesn’t sound as good played quietly (though there may be quiet parts). Actually, I think orchestral music also sounds best at a live concert level, as played quietly the crescendos and percussion simply don’t have the same impact (literally!).
Yes some gigs can be too loud (though it depends where in the auditorium one is, and ears ringing the next day as I experienced after a handful of gigs back in the 1970s is definitely not good), but in my experience the majority are not.
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Many speakers just fall apart at low volume. Others were almost magic like the Rogers LS3/5a. I used 135’s to drive
them in the 80’s and they produced some really-really powerful Bayreuth/Wagner perfectly scaled down.
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Yet I prefer not scaled down, regardless of speakers! That is orchestral music, especially dramatic pieces. The big bass drum should be big, the strident brass strident, the full crescendo a crescendo (and ppp violin clear though quiet)… But chamber music sounds best quieter - I.e at chamber music levels! Folk music at folk singer levels etc.
I have Rogers LS3/5As in my study, inherited from my father more than 20 years ago. They still sound fantastic on the end of a SuperUniti.
Best
David
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Sounds fab on my very similar LP12/252/300/SBLs. Dynamic and punchy. This record really tests how quickly notes stop as well as start so a real foot tapper head nodding experience!
Leon is my favourite film! Anyway, carry on…
10/02/1985: Bruce Springsteen performs during the last show of the 1985…
‘Born in the U.S.A. Tour’.
The song,.Born In The U.S.A…
…with Bruce Springsteen at a Stadium-concert 1985 @TiberioMagadino says well everything.
There you have the simple answer to yours,.according to me strange question.
The Song,.together with the Artist and Audience unite in a Powerful Euphoric Experience.
Try recreating it with the music at low volume,.it is not possible,.strange that you don’t understand this.
It’s part of the actual meaning of visiting major arena-events…A Total Euphoric Experience.
•And you never get that feeling with low volume…
As Simply As That.
/Peder🙂
Ah, EBB Hyde Park free concert. At least you hadn’t wasted money in a ticket!
That was about when I first came across them, through hearing that single when someone played it at a rehearsal for a Scout play. I loved it, bought it, and got hooked (on their music generally, rather than Out Demons Out specifically, and on their anti-establishment attitude) But that was before I had discovered live music and so sadly I wasn’t at that gig. That said, I’ve never been one for joining in with antics encouraged by a band, so if I could still see I might also have remained seated if I was there, but I doubt through lack of enjoyment!
I agree, Mino Cinelu/Why Not is one of my favorite tunes because it demonstrates what a proper sound system can do at all listening levels.
When entertaining and guest enter my home, their eyes are instantly drawn towards the Bronze & Brain FraimLite stacks. After a few hours of local streamed music in the Rec-Room, occasionally, upon exiting, one may ask for an demonstration. I don’t know about you, but I live for this moment hoping it can justify the exorbitant amounts of cash I spend on Hi-Fi.
Have a seat, 9 minutes of Mino Cinelu:
The 282 is set at 9.5 o’clock, as we all know is rather on the loud side. The room is quiet if Naim’s annoying Hum isn’t present. The recording starts off at low levels reaching its max at about 80 seconds into the recording. An engaging array of instruments is thrown at the audience. About six minutes of separation between channels filling the carpeted 13 x 18 living-room with quick switches between instruments. Then the finally, an abrupt strike of the cymbal followed by immediate quietness!
Of Course, I say nothing and wait for an response. Mind you, most of my guest wouldn’t spend a grand on a system less known a CD player!
Yes, I prefer the recorded version as opposed to the live large event. But at the same time, I’m trying to replicate the atmosphere of the intimate night-club.
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Whilst I’m with you on the energy in rock music, personally I’ve never liked huge stadium sized gigs (nor Springsteen): In my experience anything more than about 10k people is definitely too big, 3k or less better (and a favourite venue for me was the old ~400 capacity Matquee Club in London - very intimate (and could be very loud!) Having to watch through binoculars or on a large TV screen beside the stage with sound not in sync with the band is not ideal! To me the only good thing about a huge event is if it is more of a festival with a whole day or more of music, when the atmosphere of the whole event is a part, not just the music.
I can’t fully agree with that. Beyond a certain volume level, you reach the point where it becomes unpleasant for no further gain in musicality, euphoria or anything else. If anything, those extreme volumes make music harder to follow, with the possible exception of the sort of deep bass that you feel more than you hear.
I suspect the threshold at which this happens will be different for different people, but I am quite sure that it is exceeded on some occasions.
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LS 3/5As… We stocked them, and I have fond memories of using ridiculous amplification and getting stunning results. One of my fellow workers at the store settled on a great system for home, with the Rogers being driven by a mighty Krell KSA50, (forget the model of the pre), with an LP12/Ekos/Koetsu Rosewood to provide the grooves. Naturally he got them in Rosewood finish, which was so beautiful.
One of the few times when I saw the Krell blue behemoths as a better option than the 32/135s.
We also had some amazing Luxman class A amps which offered something special on the LS3/5As as well. And they had Rosewood cases! Must be something about polished timber…
The better hifis gives more insight into the music. Given the convoluted chain that the music has to go through, refering to some imagined “live” is pointless.
Live concerts suffer from a different set of convolutions. Besides PAs being designed with differing aims than just fidelity, you’re stuck with noisy/rude audiences, sound guys catering for multitudes of listening positions, (here I agree with an earlier poster about being a bit proactive in booking your seats), and sadly the odd mixing guy who has wildly differing ideas on what constitutes “balance”.
I love a good concert for many reasons, foremost being the involvement that live music can attain. Sort of ultimate PRaT when it all falls into place.
However often it doesn’t gel.
Whereas your home setup is more controlled and consistent. So generally I believe that I get better results at home than at live venues.
I go to small jazz venues often. A couple of weeks ago I was at a gig where a trio played totally unamplified. The sound was amazingly better than home. Exception proves the rule perhaps?
I have been fortunate to have a friend sing Puccini at my dinner table, (she is an opera singer), and there is no way any hifi comes close.
I used to have a pretty good piano complete with a decent pianist in my home. My lovely wife played often, and it was so much better sonically than my hifi at the time, (active Isobariks).
I also had access to a Revox A77 and some great microphones. The recordings I did were illuminating. Not at all as enjoyable as good studio recordings, because the balance was pretty dire, (I just did mono microphone/line stage/reel to reel), however clarity and immediacy of sound was superb. But even with 3x250s and Isobariks the sound was anaemic compared to the real piano.
You pays your money and you takes your chances either way.
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I have complained for years about the sound at live gigs. It is not that I expect to experience hi-fi sound; I just don’t want the ears beaten off me!
And I’m not afraid of turning up the volume at home, provided the recording is good enough. If record companies released recordings of live rock concerts as heard by the audience, nobody would buy them. I walked out of Bob Dylan in Dublin because I couldn’t abide the noise, yet I have more live material of his than any other performer.
I believe that the performers don’t know how bad the sound is, the sound ‘engineers’ are close to deaf, and the audiences have been wrongly led to to believe that loudness equals quality.
In all of this I believe that the only possible relief would be if the ‘Critics’ would call it as it really is, but they appear to be in thrall to the venues.
What a mess!
Totally with you, I was going to say the same about engineers, by the time they have sat in a truck, done the sound check then the concert, perhaps it is no surprise their hearing is compromised. A reason why I only go to smaller venues now. From memory, probably the best amplified sound I have ever heard was Jimmy Nail. But the contrast of John Williams playing the same hall unamplified?
I go to a local folk club who meet at a church, more than once the performers will give encores a capella with no amplification. The sound immediately goes up the scale from acceptable to excellent.
At home I insist that I have an audio system, definitely not hifi, because that term so often means forward, in your face, designed to impress in the short term. I prefer to listen comfortably for long periods, sometimes quiet, sometimes loud, sometimes background. None of that is really going to match live, to which many have commented has a different connection, the memorable concerts are those where the performers are enjoying themselves, reacting to the audience, there is a palpable engagement both ways.
Hopefully I get the best of both worlds.
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