Delightful ? Hum, hum…
Avoiding the question ?
Let’s try again.
Suppose, (it’s not life-threatening, just purely hypothetical), that Richard Dane, on behalf of Naim Audio, announced that the “official” starting point for all live streaming requirements into Naim streaming equipment, is a Cisco 2960 and a suitable length of floating Cat6a cable from Farnell.
That’s it. Nothing else.
Would that satisfy you and bring to an end all this colourful discussion about ethernet cables and switches ?
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Out of curiosity, why do you think that it is a “can of worms” that Naim may not want to address?
I think all we need is a decent wireless or wired network from a router or a switch if there are not enough ports on the router. That is it, really.
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I guess I use the phrase ‘can of worms’ as experiences of streaming cables & switches for example seem somewhat inconsistent, leading to rather heated debates, well on here anyway. It would appear that different streaming systems produce subtly different results, or no change, when cables and devices are added or replaced.
When experimenting with such devices and cables, some describe in detail how SQ has improved, some describe a ‘change’ in SQ, others say there is no difference and a few say SQ has worsened.
There have been a few threads on here, however, where there does seem to be a majority who have experienced an uplift in SQ from certain specific additions to the link between router and streamer. Examples are Cisco 2960 switches and BJC or CatSnake 6a streaming cables (with floating shields). The EtherRegen and EE 8Switch switches also seem to be showing promise.
I would be the first to admit this is highly unscientific research and I don’t have any stats to back this up, just an impression from reading such threads. I do feel however there could be some milage in Naim looking into this and conducting some listening tests for themselves to see if any cables, devices or arrangements in the router/streamer link can indeed produce consistent, repeatable benefits in SQ. Who knows, they may have already carried out some tests, or are planning to.
I am not going to hold my breath though!
I would summarize in a few words that the differences seen by some users here are probably psychological high expectation due to the new changes and/or possible placebo.
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And let’s try to avoid stating opinions as facts.
We can’t know what we don’t know.
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Hah, quote of the day ! Why we can’t know what we don’t know? Everything is so obvious, what we hear is what we get.
It is not rocket science.
Well Nigel, your choice of equipment as a potential starting point for Naim, almost matches the equipment that I suggested earlier.
Now, I envisaged Naim would test purely with a simple, direct feed from isp block to Naim streamer. There would be no branches to other devices or end users. Such variations would be too diverse to meaningfully test.
Anything beyond this “idealised” starter, would be up to the customer and retailer to sort out.
Is that what you had in mind when you started this thread ?
But would that be meaningful? It would be like checking the sound of Naim plugged into your domestic electricity supply with all your other appliances like TVs and fridges unplugged/disconnected.
To me the right approach is for Naim to distance itself of such dependencies, and the post from Stevesky suggests that this is what they are doing… at least from a home network equipment point of view as opposed to RFI coupling from cables and mains.
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Dealers should not sell network streaming components if they have very little idea on how it works. For example I phoned to 3 dealers in France to understand how can I send the downloads on my past Unitserve. No one knew!
My dealer didn’t know how to install the Unitserve too.
And there are much more complicated tasks than that, like changing Metadata, transferring files from one server to another…
A lot of dealers, be it in France or UK, don’t know it. You can see the numerous topics on these pc / network…questions here, because people can’t have the accurate response from their dealers.
So a minimum of knowledge or teaching in that pc area should be necessary too, to allow the dealers to sell such products.
It’s not plug and play, neither for the installation, neither for the sound.
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Nigel - I know where you are coming from. But… say Naim produce a list of ten wires or switches that they think are good. A company then produces a new product. Do Naim invest time rating it? So they add it to the list? They would spend so much time testing and updating. They would also be wide open to companies alleging favouritism and lobbying to be on the list, perhaps even offering inducements. It would be a nightmare!!
All I believe they should do is put a quick guide in their manuals - use wired if possible, avoid powerlines and use a switch if you need more sockets. To do anything otherwise would be a world of pain. I’d rather them be developing new products and providing a decent customer support than testing and listing ethernet paraphernalia.
Reflecting on what @frenchrooster wrote above, a guide for dealers or training to get them up to a decent standard would be a very good idea. It would be wrong to expect dealers to have an exhaustive knowledge of every metadata editor available but they should at least be able to guide people to get them going on a basic initial installation.
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If my memory serves me correctly i think Jason Gould was visiting dealers last year to give setting up advice for Naim equipment…not sure how many or how far flung from HQ.
Simon, you are right.
My post was aimed at driving home my view that it would be totally impractical for Naim to do what Nigel is suggesting in this topic.
It was further aimed at exposing the fact that no matter what Naim tested or recommended (if they did make some such attempt) would fail to satisfy most of the “ethernet cable and switch maniac” enthusiasts 
For the avoidance of doubt, I do not consider nor imply that any of the said enthusiasts are maniacs, it’s just a term of endearment that appeared in the title of a recent thread.
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Welcome on board.
There are, and always have been, good dealers and not-so-good dealers.
Choose your dealer with care.
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I agree. If you are buying a hi-end steamer, you want a dealer who can advise on proper set up whilst emptying ones pocket…
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As painlessly as possible😬
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Some interesting responses here and a lot of sense emerging.
The variable nature of the impact ‘fiddling’ with the router/streamer link has on SQ is no reason not to investigate further. The fact that you can’t legislate for every single set-up and all operating environments in the home is also not a reason to ignore potentially SQ-enhancing measures. Maybe all you can ever do in recommend measures (and equipment?) that could be of benefit to most systems in most homes, with advice on how to combat the deleterious effects of other variables. But before any advice is given, Naim need to assure themselves that there are measures and kit that can have a positive, repeatable impact on SQ. Ideally the continued development of streamer hardware (and software?) would further bring these ‘external’ deleterious effects under control, as with the new ND streamers.
If such knowledge were to emerge, I agree that Naim should not, and would not, go down the route of recommending third party’s equipment to the customer base. However, they could recommend certain set-ups of the router/streamer link to their dealer network, but this would need to be accompanied by a fair bit of additional training, I would suggest.
The alternative to this is for Naim to develop certain items themselves, if they are convinced of the (mostly) repeatable benefit. But no point reinventing the wheel here, if it were thought a third party’s equipment could not be bettered. This might mean that Naim-developed ethernet kit (let’s call it) might be limited to a streaming cable. As we know, Naim don’t manufacture analogue cables. They buy in these cables in reels/drums and ‘terminate’ and test them at the factory. The same model could be adopted for streaming cables, if a real benefit to the end-user could be demonstrated.
None of this circumvents the need for good advice from Naim and the dealer network. This in turn can be aided buy great installation documentation in the form of manuals, set-up guides, dos & don’s and the like. I must say I feel there is some way to go here and I realise the only constant is change. But keeping all this stuff on-line means updating advice is a doddle these days.
So where do we go from here? Well Naim will need to decide if they believe that the deleterious effects the router/streamer link and the operating environment has on SQ can entirely be removed through the ongoing development of streamer hardware and software. This of course is the ideal route and would put an end to all the tweaking and arguing. But if we are going to be stuck with some negative effects the streamer itself cannot remove, then we are back to ‘tweaking’ the ‘environment’ in which the streamer operates, and back to developing the ‘sticking plasters’ we have been discussing.
Ideally, one day, we will all have a streamer that rejects all noise and emits no noise, and is oblivious to the imperfect environment in which it operates. We are however far form that ideal music-making box. Until that time, we will be in ‘mitigation mode’.
As well as Jason, IIRC, Mark Raggett has been undertaking a wide ranging training program for distributors and dealers. Of course, with so many dealers he’ll be kept very busy for a good many years yet…
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Thanks Richard good initiative, and i am not totally mad…all good news for me
This is great to hear, and nothing less than I would expect from Naim. I don’t underestimate the time and effort needed to bring all dealers up to speed in this area.
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