Someone on another post had suggested what I think could be a great idea - to leverage the PRaT of a Naim power amp, such as the NAP250DR, and the holographic imaging and warmer sound of a tube or hybrid preamp. I thought this was potentially a great idea!
What I love about the Naim components is the tight and punchy PRaT and grip, BUT I feel it could use more holographic imaging and warmth. What I typically don’t like about all tube systems is the lack of the punchy PRaT. It sounds like this approach might provide the best for both worlds.
I’d be interested in others thoughts about this and whether anyone else is doing this.
In the pre/power heirarchy, it is mainly the Naim preamp that propels the ‘Naim sound’. As such using a Naim preamp, with a tube power amp may just be the best of both worlds.
And in 1985, I did just that…I was using a 42/Hicap/newly released NAP135s, which sounded amazing with the LP12/Ittok Karma.
That is-until I replaced the 135s with a Audio Research D70mk2. And not only did PRAT significant increase, but for the first time there was actually a 3rd dimension in the sound stage.
I was so impressed, I attempted to replace the 42/Hicap with an Audio Research SP8, and some 4 box Krell preamp, and some 2 box PS Audio preamp.
And in every case the 42/Hicap was the superior preamp-into the Audio Research power amp.
Note this was a single rail 42 using the single rail output found in very early Hicaps.
Yes, a Naim preamp and tube power amps has a LOT going for it.
Many years later I replaced the NAP500 in a 552/500 pairing with some tube monoblocks, and experienced the same type of holistic improvements.
I have no experience of tubes, but having used a 250DR with a non-Naim passive pre and a digital pre, neither produced results that I was really happy with, and in both cases I moved on to other setups.
So my advice would be to approach with caution. I would never say don’t do it - rules are there to be broken, but still you should have a plan B in case it doesn’t work.
I wouldn’t dare. It’s so subjective. Have heard recent Naim integrates with allegedly great PRaT and thought “Nah”. Heard some chrome bumper stuff which was mesmerising and some which was unlistenable.
Have just moved out of the Naim ecosystem via a 300B integrated. It doesn’t do full on Naim PRaT but then nowadays that’s not what my ageing ears need and it does enough astonishingly well and balanced with soundstage etc. Put it on the 4 ohm taps and it’ll do PRaT like nothing Ice ever heard but it’ll also put you in the front row and pin you to the wall in a not necessarily good way.
I would more go for the Ear 912 preamp, personally. I had it with Nap 250.2, 250 dr, 300 dr, Nc250. The Ear 912 is more dynamic vs the 252 I had ( non dr however). It gave more fluency, colours, and opened the soundstage.
The Ear 509 are more on the soft side, from what i could read sometimes.
Maybe the Ear 890, with the 252 or 332. Should give Naim Prat and more.
I have now all Ear and I am so surprised that my feet are tapping so much. It’s not the coloured and syrupy sound some may imagine.
I appreciate the preamp recommendations, although I’m looking for more general sanity check on the idea of replacing the Naim preamp with either an all tube or hybrid preamp and connecting it with a naim power amp such as the NAP250DR for example. I’m wondering if this would retain the PRaT that Naim is famous for (and I like!) and add more holographic imaging and warmth from the preamp.
BTW, the Ear 912 is killer! But, unfortunately WAY over my budget. Any preamp would have to stay under $4k. Thanks!
Hmm I’m a vinyl listener that uses a Stageline S phono stage that is mated to an SX integrated amp - XS Flatcap combination and would replace the the Stageline with a tube phono stage but if were using a separate pre - power , I think away to go a may be Naim pre amp + tube power amp, for example a quad 306 . Is just food for thought though but do experiment as your ears will know best.
The Ear 868 , second hand, with a 250 dr, is all you need.
Maybe the Manley , posted above.
Macintosh tube pre work very well with Naim.
But be careful, other not. ( like Conrad Johnson for instance).
I never really understood the enthusiasm for 300B based amps.
Very rarely have I heard more than too focused midrange from such things.
As I understand its a difficult task to choose matching loudspeakers for such combination.
My most positive experience with tube kit is likely EL84 based.
I have rarely heard pace, timing and basnotes delivered in a convincing way, on valve amps.
Quad 306 is not a tube amp.
Nevertheless a nice little thing, especially with partnered Quad preamp.
On the right loudspeakers I prefer Quad 303, some say this sound rather tubey"
The old Quad 33 and 303 are an interesting pairing. When matched with suitable speakers they can sound really rather lovely, albeit very, very different to Naim. There’s a softness and a kind of ethereal quality to their reproduction, but it’s never just dull or leaden. They also manage to pull off the trick of being engaging, just in a different kind of way. For a relaxing sound that didn’t slip into being just dull and uninteresting, they probably fit the bill to a tee. The 33 is probably the weaker of the two, but sometimes individual parts are much stronger working together than on their own. As an aside here, I have to admit I have never tried running any of my 303s off a Naim pre-amp…
My old 33 is in desperate in need for attention, as is my FM3.
But partnered with a 303, it is really nice kit.
A classic looks which is above most other design.
Would like to experience the “new” released 33/303 even its Chinese made.
With ESL57/303/33 many would have lived happy life with no hifi forums and other audio purchase.
I think there’s a significant distance between “doesn’t exist” and “I’ve never heard”. If the second is true it doesn’t mean the first is. It just means you’ve not heard.
Certainly, by reputation, 300Bs are lovely but not suitable for entire genres of music. However, that’s kind of decades out of date. Nowadays, just as solid state can encompass features long associated by cliche with tubes so can valve amps encompass the very best of solid state in terms of both bass and PRaT. Far from not existing there are literally loads of examples and, whilst I’ve no intent to roll tubes myself, doing so can give you an entirely different amp again. Some of the Prima Luna range are fine examples of this.
My ears no longer gelled with my CDX2/XPS2. I was looking at EL84s and then a kind member on another forum let me hear them and…they were lovely but dull. I discovered through trial and error that I’m closer to EL34s or 2A3s but in turn those are so close to Naim like PRaT I did find myself what would the point be in making such a change.
Friend has a Nagra 300B and on one level it’s fantastic but they mostly listen to jazz, folk or classical with a few other things thrown in whereas I am all over the place. The sound stage and sheer flow of things like jazz made it a compelling proposition but I would still have a desire for something with a tad more PRaT. I’ve found that with the Feliks Arioso 300B. If I want Naim like PRaT then, frankly, on the 4ohm taps it takes you beyond the front row and almost at the knee of the musicians. It out does Naim PRaT by some distance although it’s not appropriate for everything. On 8ohm I get it all. Sound stage, flow, just enough PRaT, timbre so good I can name the guitar and strings etc.
I take your point re: speakers where you’re using solid state and valves. Certainly it’s a sight easier with just valves.
Any preamp would have to stay under $4k. Thanks!