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I do wonder if ND555 users are experiencing this issue more than others?
I think perhaps we are. I’m sitting hear listening to both my ND and LP12. Five days or so ago my ND/Core was bettering the LP12 on more than 50% of the music I play. Tonight I can’t find a single track that isn’t completely destroyed by the LP12. That’s the significance of the change for me.
I’ve always been surprised by how similar the sound signature was between my ND/Core and LP12. The ND/Core has become astonishingly ‘analogue’ sounding over the last year with the various tweaks I’ve done but not any more. It’s reminding me a bit of the early CD players! The whole tonal balance is now out of kilter. Lots of detail but just too bright and too much bass. The system has lost its lovely organic, natural and balanced tones. I can’t play the system at anywhere near the volumes I normally play at, which for me is a sure sign something isn’t right!
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New firmware always tweaks the sound profile… it’s a manifestation of how the products are designed. Although the released firmware is ‘tuned’ to align with the Naim expected performance, on critical listening each firmware will sound different… some subtle and some less so… it’s to do with the noise floor in the streamer DAC sections changing its profile due to code execution timing.
This has happened ever since the first gen NDAC which defined the core architecture that subsequent streamers were based on.
In the previous forum there used to much discussion on the sound character of different firmware.
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I’m experiencing exactly as described above with my 333. Bloated bass is the worst part of it all. All room modes have been amplified while it was very tight before.
@Stevesky , I would also like to be added to the list of users who is very unhappy with this update and would like to roll back to the previous build.
Yes. I was reading the above thread this afternoon.
A couple of relevant posts.
Is the above and the firmware tuning you mentioned obtained by altering the DSP, or is it by other means.
Pretty much my findings too on NDX2, some stuff sounds pretty good but overall it’s a bit sterile, I find it’s sort of neutered my Spendors which normally have a slightly warm tone with nice textures particularly in the mid bass.
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Hi all,
Please contact our helpdesk via:
support@naimaudio.com
or call T: +44 (0) 1722 443405
No problems talking about it on this forum, but we can’t really supply product support here. At most we’ll fix a few radio stations etc.
I personally can’t help you out one by one. We have dedicated teams that deal with this.
Regards
Steve
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Hi, no the DSP algorithms in terms of filters have not changed at all… I think I am correct in saying the over sampling and low pass filter is the same as from the NDAC days. The Naim code is quite small, and it is op codes that drive the SHARC DSP processor.
The difference is caused by the change in digital noise profile. Digital switching noise is different from analogue signal noise… and it can change the tonal response of the resultant analogue signal through various interactions. The digital noise profile is caused by low low level operations in the system of the timing of reading and writing memory from the dynamic memory as well the relative timing of the SHARC processor op code execution, and also the execution of the code in the micro controllers. All these functions create a noise profile. We are more prone to hear the effects on systems that are more transparent and resolving,
This is why you might have heard me say some might prefer the effect of inducing digital noise into their systems by using certain network products or media adapters, when they might be thinking they are removing digital noise… it’s a funny old game.
In beta there was a difference between firmware versions on the classic streamers. Some sounding preferable to others… and that was fed back, but I think there was urgency to remedy the internet/web radio challenges.
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This is what I recall from a few years ago. So in essence even minor changes to the firmware could potentially change the sound. Unless some of these things are consistently predictable such that you could try to mitigate when changing aspects of firmware (a likely impossibility), any updates potentially sound different.
I earlier mentioned the prospect of decoupling any DSP from the firmware which would need some kind of streaming data transport pipeline (I’m making this up), but would it be feasible to have ‘controller firmware’ in a separate box decoupled from the DSP/output box - they wouldn’t necessarily need to be in separate boxes I guess but that would probably be easier to isolate noise.
Thanks Simon
So, naim stating, they haven’t ‘changed any of the audio processing (identical DSP code on all)’ isn’t really relevant, because other things can change the sound.
Well a few years back when I discussed such things with Naim engineering, I was advised on the classic streamers they had got to reasonably high level of determinism with the effects of the code timing, but it wasn’t 100% reliable, so I understand released firmware ‘tuning’ and inspection by ear is still normally undertaken.
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Absolutely… the DSP in terms of filtering and oversampling is probably pretty neutral on sound…, that is more about minimising digital artefacts which are unpleasant, as well as phase distortion… it’s the side effects of that filter executing as well as other effects you hear the sound of.
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Seems to me, and naturally others may disagree, that the best solution for all end-users would be to allow reinstallation of older/legacy firmware provided the end-users accepted that older firmware reversions were not officially supported and would not include enhancements/bug fixes or potentially security related updates. Get the end-user to accept those T&Cs and provide a mechanism to update from a downloadable or remote legacy firmware (ideally via the app).
I don’t think anyone could really argue with that - allow reverting to a previous preferred firmware but accept it’s not Naim’s problem if the firmware lacks newer features/bug fixes/security updates. Do so at your own risk, and if it all messed up I’m confident they could support a fix to more recent firmware via the dealer.
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If a non Naim streaming bridge was used with say an NDX2 via S/Pdif, would a firmware update (as Naim have just implemented) to the NDX2 produce a change in the sound.
What I’m asking is, would the separation of the streamer from the dac/analogue stages prevent or reduce effects of streamer firmware upgrade at the dac/analogue stages.
Yes nothing or very little to do with the streaming module… though it does have its own firmware…
So to answer your question I think, I use an off board DAC with my NDX2… it addresses a lot of evils for me… but I can hear subtle changes firmware, perhaps more subtle than if I used the streamer analogue signal outputs, instead of the digital signal out… I have not looked into this, but I speculate the master clocks is subtly modulated by the noise and that couples into my DAC… but that is speculation on my part, as that is something I have not explicitly measured.
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I’ve made a bit of a discovery. I’ve just changed the grounding switch on the back of my ND to ‘floating’ and the improvement is significant! I’ve never been sure what to set it at as I have my LP12, Superline and Geddon connected and some people suggest that this has the main earth and some say it doesn’t, which will obviously alter the ground/floating position on the ND.
I’ve generally set it by ear and kind of forgotten what I’d set it to. Tonight I changed it (to floating) and instantly the brightness disappeared and the bass got a lot better. I’m just wondering if the new FW is more sensitive to this setting than before?
That said I can’t remember if you have anything else connected to your ND and if your setting could be wrong? Might be worth trying it switched over but be aware it seems to take several minutes to take full effect, so don’t rush it.
A long shot I know but it seems it might have worked for me. I need a longer session but I was able to play three tracks (before the wife came in) that were sounding really good, like my old system but maybe even better!
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Nope the firmware code timing is not sensitive to it… just a subtle tonal balance change might have made you more sensitive to it. Yes two or more grounded connections is often not going to sound great… it helps noise be induced into the analogue ground reference signal. So if you already have a grounded signal, the other should be floating for best / designed performance.
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Are you still convinced? I will definitely try this tomorrow.
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Sounds as if the tonal changes are an improvement to some and a worsening to others. Not a surprise I guess given we all have different ears, brains and rooms…
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