Indeed. However, my point was that if you cut and then replay a vinyl record from a digital source you inevitably introduce more imperfections than if you play a digital copy of the original directly through a (good) DAC.
That of course doesn’t mean that people will dislike the result: the reality seems to be that a proportion of people actually like the effect on the sound. Maybe it is akin to playing digital files compressed using MQA, where, I understand, the result is an alteration in accuracy compared to the original digital file, but some people prefer the effect, or akin to ground plane modulation by RF in some DACs, that in some cases produces a subjectively ‘brighter’ sound which apparently some people prefer.
It’s worth remaining the streaming and CD are for the masses, it will be recorded and knocked out
Most people streaming it will go to an iPod or even less, this is where the money is made
Vinyl however is made in much smaller quantities and although we pay a lot more for the album, in general the SQ is firmly with us, the record is not the same as the CD or file
And that’s before we get to 45RPMs etc
IB,
All the limitations of the vinyl mastering, production and reply process that you highlight are absolutely valid. Equally, you can hardly argue that I’m a biased anti-Chord or anti-streaming person, having recently bought the very same dac that you enjoy, topped off with an M Scaler to get the very best from it.
Just one point though. How come such a flawed product as the humble vinyl record, played through our good but not world class turntable & phono stage absolutely beats the musical insight, flow and emotional engagement that we have ever heard from a streaming system, including the Chord M Scaler & DAVE that we also enjoy very much these days?
There is still something wrong with the digital music replay chain. I am certainly not technically qualified to say what it is and I’m not sure that any manufacturer has fully identified let alone resolved its shortcomings. I suspect that the micro-timing topic that Rob Watts is passionate about has something to do with it but even this may not be the whole story.
I am absolutely convinced that a modern digital replay chain has the potential to beat a vinyl one every day of the week. However, we have yet to hear that potential realised on the basis of the world class streaming systems from Naim, DCS, MSB and Chord that I have auditioned this year. I do hope that the missing element is found and resolved in the next few years though.
Ignoring bad mastering of some digital, I haven’t heard recorded music played any better through vinyl than through my streaming system - therefore I don’t recognise the question, even though others do. Clearly either I haven’t heard through as good a vinyl system as have others, or the source material I have heard was compromised (I didn’t have a record washer when I had a TT, nor does my only vinyl-owning hifi friend), or what gives me musical engagement and satisfaction is different from those who prefer vinyl.
This thread of course was specifically asking about digitally recorded music played converted to analogue and they put through the vinyl storage and replay process, therefore compared with digital direct to a DAC: where all-analogue is compared to the analogue recording converted to digital there are other compromises in the digital chain to offset against the vinyl route.
As I intimated, my observations about degradation through the vinyl medium compared to remaining digital were assuming mastering didn’t kill digital, as I recognised it sometimes has. Genuine hi res files copied from the original master are where there could well be a difference compared to the same recording mastered for CD or mp3 sale - and it is from the original master that the vinyl may be most likely to be made.
Mastering for vinyl and CD is different. In principle you are right - but what may make the vinyl sound better is that the lower dynamic range of vinyl could mask some low-level digital distortion
When it comes to CD people often forget the use of processes like Apogee UV22 (noise-shaped dither) which increase dynamic range to 20-bits (120dB). In the beginning there was Sony Super Bit Mapping thas was not very good but UV22 and later products work well.
For digital distribution and radio it varies. Today EBU, Apple and others use level measurements that makes some distribute optimized masters for earch target.
It may not have been discussed here very often but it is frequently raised on the Hoffman site. Almost every discussion of a re-issued LP pressing seems to be punctuated every 10-15 posts with the question ‘is it confirmed this is an analogue pressing?’!
I have many albums in both LP, CD and hi res and more often than not the vinyl sounds different (and better to my ears) on my system. Regardless of whether it is master analogue from tapes or digitised masters. Easy to demonstrate.
Partly I think this is due to the physics of LPs - compression is usually counterproductive because it means you have to reduce the mastering volume to fit the music onto an LP which sounds poor due to higher surface noise. Also I suspect the harmonic distortion (it’s easy to see on a hi res needle drop) is pleasing to the ear.
The difference was most marked when I ran Urika I in my LP12. Urika II has felt like a backwards step (too digital sounding overall but still often more detailed than equivalent digital streams) and I am about to revert back to Urika I.
Then there is the pleasure from the experience of handing LP art work and vinyl which is enjoyable from time to time. I listen to both and both have a place.
First, do you really have evidence that recording and mixing and mastering techniques are different when the end product sold to the customer is a digital file vs. a piece of pressed vinyl? I kinda doubt it, as it’s my understanding that it’s the same recording sessions, and the mix-downs, and the same same masterings . . . that get sold as digital files and vinyl records.
OK boomer – iPods? We are 2 weeks away from 2020. The last time I saw an iPod I was so surprised I fell off the dinosaur I was riding . . .
I would say when was the last time you saw an iPhone ? yes iPods are dead but that platform is in an iPhone so why carry both ? they both run iMusic or whatever it is called now so the principal of listening to music that way is the same.
I don’t see renewed interest in vinyl being sustainable. The additional cost for a new record over a cd or stream puts it at an immediate disadvantage. The (arguable) superiority of an lp over digital format cannot be proven when played on a toy-like turntable like crosley, which is all many of the new-comers ever find to use.
Nick Cave tragic here in sunny Perth. Just got Ghosteen in hi-res. You know, the cover art just doesn’t cut it on the ipad. But there are other things to occupy my interest.
I don’t have a t/t but if I did…
I know exactly what you mean, same goes for Netflix etc - streaming services are not the easiest to ‘browse’ and I find it often only really helps when I know exactly what I want to play.