Vinyl vs Digital

Nice one! Will tell my kids and see what they make of it.

Vinyl, for people who can count to 3. :wink:

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Much of the problem with early CD player was that the level of ultrasonic spuriae was relatively poorly controlled and this had a disastrous effect on the amps at the time (which were designed for vinyl or tape play back and so weren’t properly protected from the deleterious effects of ultrasonic signals). In the end I found I had to design my own audio amp to specifically deal with this issue. It worked.

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Wow, a flaw in the amps:

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Ex scientist, ex scientific instrument designer, ex computer systems designer, now retired, still a nutcase. Synology DS112j NAS (Synology Media"

For me I prefer digital media served to me on a silver disc. I prefer the lack of storage space vs vinyl whilst still retaining a tactile experience. I like the fact that a CD player can just plug into a Pre Amp without needing another amp. I like the fact that if a CD is dirty I can huff on it and clean it with my t-shirt! I like the fact that I can sit in my seat listening to music for double the time that I can when playing a record. I like the fact I can use a remote control to skip tracks or relisten to tracks. I like the fact that I can buy 5-10 CD’s for the price of 1 record these days. I like the fact that CD’s have yet to get that ‘hipster’ tag. I guess I am a lazy person who doesn’t like too much clutter! Why don’t I go for streaming? As a record collector I love physical media and the hunt for rare recordings. I am not sure I am ready for the level of tweaking and extra costs associated with setting up a great home network. Not yet anyway! Plus the cost is prohibitive right now.

I have owned a large vinyl collection and record player but sold them all off now. Would I buy another? Probably but only when I ran out of other things to purchase for my system. Did I prefer the sound? Sometimes but then I have not listened to a vinyl source that has ever rivalled my digital source cost wise. Maybe I am missing out…

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I owned an NDS/555Dr, and now a ND555/555DR. So I have a number of years of experience listening to digital sources. Bought an RP-8/Apheta2/Aria tt setup ‘just for fun.’ The tt is totally enjoyable, but I cannot fairly say it’s MORE enjoyable than NDS/ND555. Different, but not a binary “better” eval. from me.

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It doesn’t have to be better your you!
Only for me!

That’s the beauty of our hobby

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There’s those that will always prefer the sound of a rock grinding against pvc, and good on them, and there those that enjoy the ease of CD/digital playback, good on them. Each to their own, I have no problems with either. I think far too many seem to worry more about the electronics than the music it’s self. Our beloved Naim moved away from analog as a source years ago, we’re they wrong? Yes I know they’re always had a phonostage and the upgrade of the NAITs to include vinyl, however I feel the later has more to do with cashing in on the current trend.

My personal view is if it’s recorded in analog it probably sounds better as vinyl, and if it’s recorded in digital it more than likely sounds better played back as digital.

I do get a little annoyed by some people’s misguided argument that one is better than the other based solely on their preference.

Think the problem with the vinyl revival is (a) a lot of new records are taken from digital masters, some even straight from a CD. I fail to see how they could be better than the original digital format and (b) cheap turntables pushed through chain and discount stores purchased by hipsters who then get on the bandwagon banging on about how good vinyl is, really.

Doesn’t really depend on the quality of the source. Anyway just my opinion.

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And a fine opinion it is!

Furthermore, I think you know the answer.
Capitalism thrives on delivering the worst posible product/service whilst maximizing profit. (Noam Chomsky).

Well spoken!
Now back to the Music, The Why!

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This to me is a misnomer, as these days vinyl is digital. Most vinyl is made from digital masters. The vinyl record, record player and associated cartridge and RIAA phono preamp is rather an alternate reconstruction filter compared to current DACs.
Therefore perhaps the title should read Vinyl vs Regular DACs… that would be more accurate… as both are Digital.

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That can be taken to it’s logical conclusion whereby you ask, is the DAC used in vinyl cutting workflow sufficiently better than whatever commercial DAC I might use to the extent that it offsets any losses incurred in analogue reconstruction using my turntable?

I think it’s fair to say a vinyl reconstruction setup is going to be lossy and most likely greater distortion compared to a capable quality purely electronic DAC, however one may, and clearly many indeed do, prefer the ‘filtering’ and reconstruction of an electro mechanical DAC such as offered with vinyl replay.

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This explanation makes a great deal of sense, yet it also provides cause for real optimism.

So for vinyl, we take a clean, low noise digital music file, attenuate the bass so that the music will fit on a 12" disk, mangle it through an industrial lathe to cut grooves in a piece of plastic, before electroplating the disk to make a master and remoulding it into pvc disks (our beloved vinyl records).

We then try to recapture the signal via a vibration transducer (i.e. cartridge) which is floating in mid air above the pvc disk on our turntables. Finally, we send the resulting electrical signal through another frequency distortion circuit to re-capture the bass using one of several RIAA equalisation curves. Little wonder that the original music file is double filtered and loses resolution.

Yet, and yet it is proving very hard indeed to find a digital replay system, whether cd or streaming, that betters a good turntable system to these cloth ears.

Why cause for optimism? There just has to be so much room for improvement over the current digital replay technology if the current best in class can only just match the results from such an imperfect vinyl production and replay system.

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The majority of my vinyl is analogue, but then it’s pretty old. That said I think this is a fair point. In my case before buying the SBLs I would have given the nod to my TT, with the SBLs the nod has become a tugged forelock; so system synergy plays a role, as always.

I completely agree about the positives of digital audio, which still constitutes the majority of my listening. What I think is more interesting is to try and think of the whys. In theory digital should wipe the floor with LP. Some of this will be the limitation of the media, with greater dynamic swings baked into the storage …but that should be easily replicated digitally; and has been by me with my LP recordings, but the experience on replay although good ain’t the same.

One of the things I love about the SBLs is their bass. I wonder whether this is due in some way to phase accuracy, I did try to find if Naim had published any sort of White Paper. Might phase accuracy be truer of a TT over a digital source? This effect would be consistent independent of the LP mastering. I will now wait to be ripped to pieces!

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why not look at the whole music creation chain, not just the mastering and replay.

Music starts as analogue and ends up as analogue. DACs are trying so hard to replicate that.

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I too was at the demo at Infidelity. The Tangerine Audio modified LP12 is streets ahead of the Linn LP12. The mods are not cheap but they do work and work well, pushing the LP12 onto another level. All about cutting out unwanted resonances to the signal path.
Having said all that I still like my CD555!

Douglas.

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Wow, the Linn Sondek surely has transformed in the last 3 decades. It almost looks like a CD player.

Gorgeous TT!

Hi Douglas,

One of the best systems I know is fronted by a CD555, and if you were to ask me whether it is better than my system, after a few drinks obviously, I might be reluctantly forced to say that it is; regardless of which front end I use. I would be interested to hear that system with a TT front end.

Ultimately, IF we could identify what it is that TT are doing that overcomes the technical advantages of digital then we might be able to take digital to a whole new level.

Yes, the Tangerine mods do not come free! Bloody good though wasn’t it. That said, with the SBLs in my system my un-tangerined TT has a brilliant synergy, as a friend said, ‘That doesn’t sound like an LP12’.

Hopefully you’ve lost weight since this photo🤣

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