Your local VAT and taxes plus administration fees.
VAT is supposed to be a tax levied on the value added to an item when it is sold.
So if you buy some materials for £120.00 to make something, then as a manufacturer (if you are VAT-registered) you claim back £20.00 (the VAT you paid), make whatever it is that you make, and sell that - presumably at a profit. VAT is due on the selling price, because you have added value to the materials you bought.
But with second hand items, you have presumably lost value. I think you should be able to claim some VAT back, not charge it.
No. You will have to pay VAT and all that on second hand private sold on import.
My point was that retail shops are geared to adding add charging the VAT automatically, and if they don’t normally sell abroad, they firstly would probably not think of giving a VAT-free price, and secondly may not know how to do it or systems may be set up that don’t readily enable it. Even if they sell VAT-free to VAT registered businesses (maybe unlikely with hifi), if they are not accustomed to it they may not know how to do it for a foreign transaction, For which I assume a different process is required by the VAT authorities.
I a seller sells a new product to someone outside the UK they can make the sale EX VAT. They then have to show the HRMC that the goods left the UK. I have just done this buying some kit from the UK and delivered here in France. Due to Brexit there is a delay in shipping. You need to have the correct documents filled out with the correct codes in various boxes. On reaching France the French customs then check the codes against the goods and charge the correct duty ( unless alcohol or tobacco, or containing more than 40 % non UK components, there should be none). Vat is then charged on the value of the goods plus any transport and insurance charges attached to the goods. Once paid the goods are released for delivery. I used UPS and the time taken has been 15 days so far- one part still to arrive but I see from the tracking is in France awaiting clearance. This is the EU changes. What happens to the rest of the world I would imagine to be similar but check local customs charges per country.
My understanding is that you are liable for VAT in EU countries if VAT has not been paid on the goods somewhere in EU, but not if it has. So when UK was in EU, goods bought from UK by someone elsewhere in EU would pay VAT in UK and so not in home country. Now with UK not in EU, VAT is always payable in the EU country of import.
The same principal applies to secondhand goods, though VAT is not payable twice, so if VAT paid when first purchased in an EU country (i.e. the norm presumed with retail goods), VAT would not be payable on Resale internally or to another EU country. But secondhand goods from a non-EU country haven’t had VAT paid within the EU So VAT is due.
HOWEVER, and this is a question for expert international legal consideration, if VAT was paid on something in UK when it was a mEmber of the EU, secondhand sale to an EU country subsequent to Brexit surely should not be due because VAT had been paid within the EU. This position could pertain for many years.
The above UK to EU - whether the other way round may be different.
There isn’t a mechanism for that at the moment. For example if you were to move to France now then you would be due to pay VAT on all goods moved with you, new or secondhand - house furnishings etc. There is however an exemption for anyone making a permanent move. You can move your household good with you, as long as you move all household goods within one year from your taking up residence. You could try arguing that the goods already had vat paid pre Brexit but I doubt if you would get far unless you have all original receipts. and I suspect that would be the subject of a claim to be made and decided in a French court.
There is a distinction not made. The VAT is levied on all goods bought, not on all goods sold. The buyer pays the VAT. The seller merely acts as an unpaid tax collector and passes it on to the revenue.
Yes. For many years I was one of those unpaid tax collectors.
There was an interesting illustration of the madness of this system:
An owner of a woodland cuts down some trees, using equipment that he paid VAT on, but claimed it back because he is VAT registered. He sells the trees to a wood-pulping company, charging VAT and paying that VAT to HMRC. The wood pulping company claims that VAT back. From the pulp, they make some paper, claiming back any VAT they have paid for materials from HMRC. They sell the paper to a paper bag manufacturer, charging VAT on the paper. The bag manufacturer claims back the VAT, and sells the paper bags to various retail shops, charging VAT on the price. The shops claim back the VAT - and give the bags away to their customers when they sell their items. Net income to HMRC = £0.00, but it all costs money to perform this pantomime.
When VAT was introduced, it was sold to as a tax on the value added to a commodity. And in other instances this works - if the bags were sold to customers then they would attract VAT which would accrue to HMRC, for example.
But at the time, second-hand items were (and I thought still are) VAT-free, for there is no value added.
However, I suppose that the government has the legal right to scam the citizenry.
Yes the ‘value added’ applies to adding value to a (local) economy, in the form of goods that are brought into the market for consumption. The fact that the goods were sold somewhere isn’t really important in that regard, it is the taxation of adding value to the economy.
You are still correct. There is no VAT on second hand goods in the UK. There is no VAT on second hand goods in France, but if they move in or out of the EU then the goods attract VAT in either country.
I’m living in Warsaw, having brought over my Naim gear (bought in England, receipts held) donkey’s years ago. I’m also rather simple…
If I need to fly to England to have the gear serviced (Doncaster airport is close to Darran 
), where do I stand ? Could I be clobbered for taxes on the way into UK or coming back to Poland ? Anyone can advise ?
No, not for stuff like returns, warranty, repairs etc. At least not on the item, not sure about the work itself.
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EU rules are that if you fill out the correct paperwork showing that the item is going for repair then you can move it and pay VAT on re-import on the value of the repair only.
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The problem with the previous system where tax was based purely on turnover was that it gave unfair advantage to the paper bag manufacturer having it’s own woodland.
Where one would buy pulp that had already been taxed, made from wood that had already been taxed, the one controling the whole of the chain would only be taxed at the very end.
So while VAT can feel like an inefficient system the way you describe, it’s actually what helps to make the playing field level.
I’m not sure that I see how (leaving aside that there is, overall, no tax paid). Suppose you had a woodland and a pulp manufacturing business and a paper bag making business, and that you sold your paper bags to the end user who does not claim tax back. You would charge them tax as a percentage of the amount they paid for the bag. Suppose you sold the bag at 10p plus tax at 20%. That means that they pay 12p and you give 2p to the HMRC.
Alternatively, let’s look at the example I gave, except that the customer pays 10p per bag plus 2p tax. HMRC still gets 2p, none of the intermediate companies pay tax (because in this system, business-to-business transactions (i.e. both businesses are tax registered) attract no tax). I don’t see how it is unfair, but the HMRC still gets the same amount of money, and less work and expense is incurred along the way.
I am very confused at the direction this thread has taken.
I didn’t know that Naim has branched out into making paper bags.
Do they quality control the sound that they make when blown up and popped? 
Also, I am sure the arcane rules about VAT are the result of a cunning plan made by Tax Inspectors and Accountants to ensure they will always be needed, with the result they have jobs for life as do their offspring.
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It’s unfair because in the previous system the value was taxed, not the added value. So the pulp factory would buy would which was taxed. Their pulp would get taxed again when sold to the paper bag company. And the end user would pay tax on that. Lot’s of income for the HMRC.
Except the company that owned the whole chain wouldn’t have paid any tax and only the end user would pay. Giving them an unfair advantage. VAT was invented to solve that problem, it’s always only the final buyer that pays. There’s a reason every country in the world (to the best of my knowledge) has adopted it.
So let’s assume no value is added in this chain, and only the HMRC (and the woodland owner) get anything.
Old system:
- Say the wood is a 100, so 120 is paid. When the pulp is sold a 144 is paid. The bags are sold for 172.80.
- Company owning the whole chain, can sell the same bags for 100.
In a VAT world, both can sell the bag for 120 (including VAT) and not make a loss.
The UK retailer doesn’t need to be ‘set-up’’ to sell an item minus VAT. If it is an export going directly abroad and declared as such, then they simply do not charge VAT and book it as an export sale. This is how it has worked for me for a long time, buying from the UK and sending to Japan. I do not come out on top of course as I have to pay shipping and 10% import tax this end.
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Well I think the application of the import duty to Japan is a bit random in my experience. Like picking numbers out of a hat. When I bought GBP25K of stuff in one go and had it shipped to Japan, customs slapped it with just JPY5000. Then I bought a single SCdr and they slapped it with JPY20000. Since then I’ve just seen numbers all over the place that equate from anywhere between 1% to 20% that show no indication they looked at the commercial invoice or understood the contents.
My most recent purchase was speakers from the states. The duty charged worked out as 3%, rather than the 10% it should be.
In the long run, I’ve come out way ahead with VAT free purchases from overseas and random duty charges that have been tilted heavily on the low value side.
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