Good Evening People. For months and months and months I’ve had issues with either my ND5XS streamer or Muso’s dropping from the app, sometimes they come back and sometimes they don’t! Sometimes they comeback after a network scan, it’s frustrating to say the least and then I read on the forum somewhere 5G interferes with this, so I turned it off on the BT hub and hey presto it’s been stable ever since! Open the app and all 4 units are there. What the heck is going on please? And if this is the case can this be rectified or is my network poorly set up? Thank you Steve.
1 Like
Do you mean 5ghz?
This will mean you are forcing your phone to use 2.4ghz and presumably your devices are also on wifi. this band goes through walls etc a bit easier than 5ghz.
I cannot imagine the 5ghz is actually effecting the connections, other than in your particular case its not ideal, so you have forced your devices to the slower band. Which is great if it works.
1 Like
Indeed, In my experience, having older 2.4Ghz band wifi overlayed with 5Ghz wifi on the same SID can be a problem. But 5Ghz itself, much more stable.
I suspect the OP has a different problem with their network where some unexpected interaction on the router was removed by unsetting 5G rather than 5G actually being the root cause.
I would never suggest opting for 2.4G and turning 5G off either. This problem and solution seems very specific to just the OP.
I have previously experienced exactly the same.
However, since I now have a non-ISP network using a new Araknis router and matching hard-wired wi-fi access points, I have had no issues at all.
1 Like
Thanks for all the reply’s that is most helpful. Yes I mean 5Ghz. There should be no reason why you can’t have both on as far as I’m concerned. I also agree that using Ethernet is the most stable, but when buy a high end product you should not have to resort changing the whole of your network infrastructure to make sure it works. Turned on 5Ghz this evening and it’s back to normal, disappearing and then reappearing!! It’s definitely something interfering with the app.
Steve
This is a known issue that has affected some, but not all Muso users for quite a while now. I would suggest that you contact Naim support and ask them if it can be remedied.
I certainly will ChrisSU, but now begs the question if this a know issue for quite a while, why the heck have they not done something about it, or update us via the forum, unless they don’t want to air their dirty laundry! All the same thank you for this as I’m not the only one suffering. Steve
1 Like
You can, and several old and new wifi protocols are designed to work with both… and newer wifi protocols use a third band…
This points to a fault with the WiFi lan controller or host device.
Modern WiFi protocols can be as stable and able if not better in some ways than Ethernet…and WiFi can avoid certain noise and interference issues such as common mode noise.
If these are 1st generation versions, they use rather dated WiFi modules. In fact they were considered dated when the devices were released, never mind now. So while Naim’s current products have much better WiFi performance, it’s possible that these older ones cannot be updated to improve their network performance.
At the time Naim always recommended wired Ethernet for reliable performance, and for most I guess this is still the case.
Yes the newer streamers are a lot better with WLAN, as essentially this handed by the NP800 network module.
It has crossed my mind whether those afflicted with SQ performance with recent firmware, whether the WiFi performance avoids this, makes it worse, or no difference. I understand the Naim streaming session management is different with WLAN compared to Ethernet… or at least it was.
Hi,
We have seen this before on some routers. Earlier Virgin media and BT ones were prone to it. This thread incorrectly mentions it’s a Naim issue but it’s a router firmware bug. We’ve tried to report the issues but it’s extremely hard to get through to the right people who make these routers as layers of management and bureaucracy in the way.
So what happens? - the app uses Apple Bonjour and UPnP SSDP discover to find streamers on the network. This is a standard method as used by streamer manufacturers. Unfortunately due to bugs in the router it starts to fail to route UDP traffic properly based on the IGMP rules setup and it appears that the streamer is no longer on the network - it’s effectively blocked. No amount of re-registering works, the router is unwilling to do its job any more. However, TCP traffic is fine so can browse internet etc. fine.
In the app we have various workarounds like manual adding of a product (if it’s on a static ip) but in practice the best solution for a stable network is replace the router, or bother your ISP for a new router as more recent models seem better.
Best wishes
Steve
2 Likes
I had issues with my Gen 1 QB & Muso disappearing from the Naim app when using standard BT router and BT black discs.
I am no network expert by any stretch, however when I replaced it all with a Draytek router and Unifi U6 access points all my problems disappeared. My Gen 1’s now work flawlessly.
Therefore I can only conclude the Muso’s were not at fault it was my network.
In fact my network has not missed a beat since changing over, in fact I don’t even think about it anymore!!!
They key thing is bugs with consumers routers/wireless access ports/switches/controllers with multicast group addressing… it is this that is used by SSDP for example. Yes, multicast uses UDP, but unicast UDP is not affected, it’s the multicast group addressing that is.
I have noticed consumer products becoming better here over time, as with IoT more and more consumer networks are using multicast…
Some ISPs who offer multicast IPTV services use sing multicast, such as BT, have products that are very capable here, so is usually not a problem at least for them.
Many residential routers are built upon older levels of OpenWRT firmware, which the router vendors slowly customise to the features of their boxes, but provide inadequate updates.
OpenWRT obtained from their “dot org” website is maintained by a large user group with updates very regularly.
For those here who don’t mind getting their hands dirty in router firmware upgrades, installing the appropriate OpenWRT firmware can be quite rewarding.
I use OpenWRT on my Netgear XR500 router and it’s been a wonderfully reliable network device for my Naim streaming.
I’ve had 1st gen muso and qb for a number of years now and as frustrating as it was I just put up with the drop-outs and issues with party mode. I assumed it was naim issue and therefore nothing I could do about it.
Recently, I changed my broadband package and now have a new EE router which has replaced my old BT router with black disc extender and now I’ve read this thread I’ve just realised I don’t think I’ve had any drop-outs with the new router. I’m paying less than I was on my old contract and hopefully all is good, I’m keeping my fingers crossed.
What was your old router. BT and EE are the same now… and the current routers are now branded EE… BT powered routers tend to be rather good products as they support advanced network functions that support IP TV etc. incidentally some of this functionality really helps UPnP music streaming as well!
The old routers pre TV, less so. I have a BT SH2 which is the same as the EE SH. Now there is EE SH+ which I guess is what you might have and that supports wifi 6, or even the EE SH pro which supports WiFi 7, alas the Naim products don’t.
With some of WiFi routers you can change the WiFi to be more compatible with older connecting products albeit with a slight loss of performance.
Glad it’s working for you.
I have not had any issue with my BT/EE SH router with first gen Qb
My old router was a Home Hub 2, I think, with one of the black disc extenders. The new router is an EE Smart Hub SH31B with one extender, which does support WiFi 6. All seems good now but I’m not using the muso and qb quite as much as around the time I got the the new router I also purchased an Atom which gets a bit more use.
The issues I previously experienced were mainly with party mode where one of the units would sometimes drop-out or one or both of the unit would sometimes not appear on the front screen of the naim app.
The controls on the device worked fine or streaming directly from say the Spotify app also worked fine.
Anyway I keeping my fingers crossed the new router has solved the issues, and of course I’m enjoying the Atom 
Good it’s all sorted, the BT SH2 is a cracking bit of kit… I doubt there was ever an issue with that … possibly the location of the black disc extender?
I don’t know… but good it’s all working well now.
It seems a slightly confusing and possibly complex issue, the new hub and extender are in the same locations as the old units.
Anyway if it works then it works, happy days.
Thank you all for your input it’s much appreciated. I to am using a BT SH2 and have down graded the Wi-Fi to be more compatible with older units and seemed to be stable for 24hours and now it’s doing it all over again! If i network scan it’s almost the ping boots it back to life and appears on the app. The ip address is fixed and most of the time you can see it on the network but not on the app. It will appear and then leave the app after a few minutes. Very frustrating.