Hi Gregg, so have you dispensed with the 552 preamp and use the DCS directly into the 500DR as well!
Interesting if this is the case as I suppose it’s entirely feasible that in the context of a DCS system no preamp is preferable whether that be a 552, Statement, Vitus or Tidal line stage. Makes the DCS gear a bit more reasonably priced. Well sort of!
The APEX upgrade was a game changer for dCS and the quality of the digital preamp is truly spectacular. Many are going in this direction and are running their dCS sources directly into amplifiers.
While I was very tempted to do the same I personally found something “lacking” when running my Rossini directly into the 500DR. Better than with the 552 in place, however missing something.
During my journey I have had more than one dealer (who are also dCS dealers so no self interest involved) insist that a preamp was always fundamental in system performance. Naim state the same.
I have decided to remain with a pre (which is also necessary due to my LP12) and have gone in that direction. Another important thing (to me) after so many years with Naim was to reduce box count. Black box fatigue is a true physical ailment 
suffered by many. At this point in my listening “career” simplicity is what I am after. My soon to arrive system, DartZeel pre and amp, has an integrated phono stage in the pre. Two boxes plus my dCS Rossini + Clock, a whole less cables, and a less finicky (than Fraim) support rack system is exactly what I am looking for at this point of my life.
I have a dear LONG time Naim friend who has moved on from Rossini to
Vivaldi and says exactly the same. dCS ends up being “more” affordable due to the lack of need to purchase a preamp.
Thanks Gregg that’s very interesting. I heard a Vivaldi setup a few weeks back at a dealer and thought it was very impressive. Sadly I don’t think I am going to be able to afford one anytime soon!
I guess the conclusion I have take from this is that the 552 is still an excellent preamp and makes a lot of sense in a Naim system. It’s just that the digital preamp in the new DCS gear is of such high quality that for many systems (particularly for those not using a turntable) a preamp is kind of redundant and cash could be spent better elsewhere.
Who doesn’t present their opinion as fact? I’m pretty sure everyone thinks their opinion is true. I’ve read Dunc’s comments and your characterization is false. He said the 552 is the weak point in the 500 series in his experience. You need to get over the fact that some people don’t hold the same view as you. And this forum is not representative of all the opinions on the subject which may surprise some people. All the 500 owners I’ve known over the years here in the states have never logged onto this website.
Do not discount dCS. The relatively new entry level LINA system is really making waves and is priced at 8400gbp. While I have not heard one everyone I know is extremely impressed with it.
end of thread drift😉
Thanks Gregg.
Yes end of thread drift!
Perhaps it’s just a case of no one likes their baby being called ugly! However, I don’t believe that is what @Dunc is saying.
In any system (not just audio systems) there will be a weakest point. It may be very strong, but just not as strong as other parts of the system. All Dunc is saying is that - in his opinion - in a 500 system, that weakest point is the pre amp.
Having never heard such an exalted system I have no opinion to offer!
I have no problem with what Dunc is saying, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but it seems he goes out of his way to put his opinion everywhere he can on here, maybe that’s why members are getting their backs up? I know there are other posters on here that have done the same sort of comparisons as him & have a different opinion but you don’t see them posting this very often.
For me, what he has done is an apple to oranges comparison. Here, his DAC alone is ~double the cost of the 552, with what their doing with digital these days its is absolutely no surprise to me that a DAC with a lossless volume control, that costs double vs a pre outperforms it. I also have a DAC that has a lossless volume control, it costs ~ 1/4 of what my 252 does, I haven’t tried but I would not in the least bit be surprised if running the DAC itself is more transparent vs the 252, but I run the 252 because I like the color it adds. In the past Dunc posted a pre should do nothing to the sound, just adjust the volume level. This post was rather curious to me, if these were his thoughts, I was wondering why did you go with Naim in the first place? Its common knowledge Naim is coloured, not a knock against Naim, most kit out there is coloured in some way, just have to pick the colour you like.
I have no problem with someone not liking the 252, but you posting the 252 isn’t very good lacks some context that I feel is rather important. If your 252 is paired with a non DR SC & a 250.2, you haven’t actually heard what the 252 is capable of & that pairing significantly changes the sonic signature. It would be like sticking a pair of Bose speakers on an S1 & then complaining the S1 is a bad pre. If you say the 252/SC/250.2 is a bad sounding combo, I’m pretty sure most on here would agree.
I’ve already explained this and it’s getting tiresome. Yes, 252/SC2/250.2, turd combo, but I spent a lot of time with the 252/SCDR/250DR and I was clear that I heard improvement over the non DR but it still wasn’t enough for me. At that price point and number of boxes it’s a big disappointment. Which is why I went with the 272/555 which is a much better SQ/$ proposition. It’s unfortunate b/c the 52/SC/250 were a real treat.
Sorry, didn’t recall that you’d spent much time with DR. I’d say with the 250DR you’re still holding things back but doesn’t matter much in this context. Sounds like OC in general just wasn’t for you. Guess we have differing opinions on VFM. Question, what’s your listening space like, is it acoustically treated & optimized with dedicated mains, etc?
Maybe Dunc or Glevethan are right, maybe wrong or hall right.
The probem is that the only element to prove that the 552 is a bottleneck is the fact that Vivaldi or Rossini Apex work better directly into an amp than through the 552. Can we extrapole that the 552 is a weak point in most cases with a high end digital source? Not sure at all.
To be sure it would be necessary to compare some different pre at the same level price with some digital sources at the level of DCS Rossini Apex/clock .
Different sources because maybe DCS and Naim pre don’t match well together.
If for example you run 3 high end digital sources into 4 different pre at the level cost of the 552, and the results are that in each cases the other well recognized pre give clearly better results than the 552, then we can conclude that the 552 is a weak component at that level of gear.
For now, we can only conclude that the 552 pre is a bottleneck vs the top DCS volume control.
For the last time it has nothing to do with running a dCS dac directly into say a 500dr, yes it is a better result as quite a few have now found out as gregg has highlighted, but i say again it’s not this that i am talking about.
I believe it’s about in a 500 series system, the 552dr is the item that is holding back the system, and that maybe the new 300 series pre amp/power supply might inpove things with it’s better volume control from the statement. Plus, the next 500 series pre should bring nice gains for owners that keep the out going 500dr and ND555.
I have heard the 500dr sound better without it’s 552dr partner.
I have heard the ND555 sound better without a 552dr.
I have seen naim owner’s post about there own findings about replacing the 552dr.
Lastly thanks gregg for chipping in, i know won’t as they don’t like the back lash you can get from doing so, so cheers.
Dunc
I have also seen owners
If i could find a good way to do it or didn’t have a turntable, then i would 100% just run direct into an amp or pair off mono amp’s.
Wouldn’t even think twice about it as the result is astonishing
Having been on the forum since 2003 I have to say there are definitely mixed opinions on the 252. Of all my Naim boxes it was definitely my least favorite (for me personally). So I definitely agree with your opinion.
It strikes me that there is no “right” or “wrong” just opinions on the best way to put together a hifi system. And that’s good, it means that the Industry will continue to offer a variety of options in what is a niche market. All I would say is when folks arrive at an opinion, no matter how well informed, don’t be over zealous, and don’t repeatedly state it as if it were a proven fact.
Regards,
Lindsay
Or a variety off options, just for Dunc.
Impressive list of gear you have listened to or owned over the years. I propose since you haven’t heard how wonderful the SN3 is, you should donate your 552 to me since it sucks so badly lol. Hurry up we’re not getting any younger.
Sorry however I do not agree with your logic.
I will add that one of my demos was a Rossini into DartZeel super integrated CTH-8550. For my ears this single box allowed all the delicious detail of the dCS to pass through and did not act as a bottleneck as the 552 did. Once again, I am not saying the 552 is bad.
For my ears this super integrated was better than my 552DR/500DR - and I guess a relative bargain at $42k versus $70k for the 552/500.
So good it gave me confidence to purchase the DartZeel separates without an audition.
PS let’s be honest. When playing at this elevated level everything is good.
I guess it simply boils down to what the individual is looking for and what flavor ice cream he enjoys.