552/300 + V175 versus AV receiver

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So the quick question is whether using my current 552/300 and speakers with AV bypass mode and adding a V175 is the best way to build a good AV system, or is a dedicated AV receiver a better option?

It’s slightly theoretical at this stage, as my room is not ideal for incorporating the rear speakers. I do have Totem Rainmakers that I can use for the rear speakers and a Totem Storm Sub that is currently with the Nova in the lounge. So would only need to get a centre speaker and cabling for the speaker side of things. Are matched speakers and cables desirable?

For the AV side of things, my Bluray (Cambridge Audio CXUHD) is digital outputs only, so I would either need another universal player with pre-amp outputs (maybe the Magnetar 900) or an AV processor, and then run the 552/300 for L & R, add a V175 for centre and rear L & R and run the sub off the player/processor or 552? But is this worth doing, or is a dedicated AV receiver a better option?

There is a nice V175 for sale here and I could run that off my Star or Nova in a bi-amp configuration in the meantime.

@drago - I see that you use a V175 for AV - how is that set-up in your system?

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Yes …
That’s my setup…let me write… @Mike_S

The Bypass Mode is not working in my setup as it brings hum on the front speakers.
I have am older (wonderful nr905 from onkyo - he sounded way above its price) avr which I use as controller only. thougt about arcam or lexicon but was too late to get a lexicon (too undecided because of complex dirac system).
Front speaker via av Input into 552. I dialed volume at 9 o’clock and leveled them via controller. It is far from optimal as you won’t catch exact 9 o’clock again - but I don’t care.
I use nap 175 for center (naim axxess - wonderful!) and surround speakers (valeur audio point one - wonderful).
Sub is Linn sizmik

Even if far from optimum it is sooo much better with Naim amplification inside compared to already very good avr!

Do it - go for nap 175 and add a controller or avr as controller

As Blu-ray player I use pana 9000

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What’s a good used controller/processor to look out for? Would be nice to keep my Bluray and add a processor with HDMI pass through.

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Lexicon mc10… but hard to get. Arcam?
Processor only is always a bit more expensive. Anthem or marantz.
I think today I would look for anthem.

Center speaker is the most important. Naim axcess is also very rare - but when it come to naturalness extremely good.

IMG_5609
IMG_56093024×4032 2.04 MB

Valeur audio!
Had them on the nsat system once - no way how good (and bettervthan nsat) they are. Warmer and full … nsats were faster

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Im not sure the Magnetar 900 (or any other Bluray Player) has Pre-Amp Outputs, they are normally Line Level Outputs that need to go into a AV Processor or AV Amp which is why most modern kit just uses HDMI into the AV equipment rather than analogue.
If you go the V175 route you will then also need another box (AV Processor or AV Amp) where-as if you just get an AV Amp its one box, it will do HDMI pass-through and you can still use your CXUHD, with PreOuts to your 552, so a much simplier solution and more user friendly to use.
Many AV Amps to choise from, Denon and Marantz being particulaly good for 5.1 music replay.
Ideally, if you can match the front left, right and centre speakers that will give the best sound, historicaaly matching the rear speakers has not been so important, but surround sound perfectionists will not agree and will insist all speakers sould be perfectly matched.

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So, in this scenario, the AV amp (receiver?) would use pre-outs to the 552, but also have standard power amp outputs to the centre, rears and a single to a sub. Is that correct?

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Yes, that is correct.
It is how i have my stereo and 5.1 systems integrated with each other.
You just need to make sure the AV Amp/Receiver has the Pre-Outs for the Front Left and Right to go to your 552 as the lower range models dont have the Pre-Outs.

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How seriously do you take AV?

That really changed the answer in a big way in terms of configuration (not necessarily cost though).

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I do enjoy a nice collection of 4K discs and on-line movies, but aren’t a fanatic. Indeed, a 4K disc from the CXUHD to ND555/552/300 in stereo sounds really very good. My interest is more around would a 5.1 setup be even better? I have the sub and spare speakers for the rears, so would need a centre speaker and AV amp with pre-outs plus some speaker cables. Room is not ideal though, rear speakers would be more side - on, and positioned when watching movies. A bit of a “what-if” scenario.

I do have the spatial audio Apple AirPods (pro and Max), which replicate AV surprisingly well, but they only work with Apple TV and not Bluray.

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Interesting question Mike. A few thoughts from my experience. Music 555/552 active in a different room, but I have used tv sound/Apple tv via optic on occasion and 2 channel tv et al can sound very, very good. AV upgrade about to be completed here, in a separate room.
Moving up from 2 or 2.1 to first 3.1, the centre speaker should defintely, from the advice I have received, be as closely matched as possible to the front l/r speakers.
Adding more channels to 5.1 or 7.1, those additional speakers are less critical, since for many movies, it is ambience as much as direct sound, except for a very few ‘real’ sound enhanced movies. Action movies come to mind like war films and the likes of Star Wars.
In the uk, aware that you are in Oz, the view from a couple of trusted dealers, is that Anthem provide a sound compatible with Naim kit.

Installed here is an Anthem AV processor - which does multi channel, together with two different power amps. For front l/r speakers a Naim 250DR driving S400s and an Anthem 5 channel amp driving centre sides and rears. The centre speaker is another S400, all S400s recently serviced with updated crossovers and two pairs of Spendors SA1s (also refurbished) for the side/rear, with a REL sub (existing). As a fan of Ovators, tried alternates but held out for sourcing some very nice additional Ovators (already had another pair in a different system).
Original AV system here was originally a bought used one, around twenty years ago. With advances in codecs, a change considered worthwhile. HDMI inputs from Oppo BluRay and Apple tv, to processor and thence to tv.

At level of 555/552, unless you have spare kit, a dedicated processor will likely be necessary with an aim to come close to match the Naim level. Extracting the sound will likely be key, hence routing the signal via a processor, 2ch, 2.1 or 3.1 level as a starting point. Unless a combined processor + amp is a prerequisite, adding centre and an interim amp to a processor, to assess how far you go, is an option. So saying, adding a sub without processor may have limited impact and to go to 3.1 requires both processor and an additional (1ch) amp.

Whether you wish to justify the cost/reward benefit, is a personal choice. Good 2 ch as you know already, will be hard to beat without committing some serious resource; ymmv.

Hope that helps in a small way. Several alternative options were considered, before final decision, so it isn’t straight forward, hence outlining current av system here, which is only one of several alternates. Vfm was a preference, hence using refurbished speakers and new electronics.

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This is a great and really helpful post thanks. A good bit to mull over.

The use is separate rooms is an interesting one. My main system is in a dedicated room along with a 65” 4K TV and the CXUHD, set up as stereo system, which works really well. I used to have the sub with this, but removed that when I went to 552/300.

In our lounge we have a 55” 4K TV, which is the most used video/TV system. This uses a Nova with a sub connected, so 2.1. This is rarely used for music, my wife runs YouTube videos via an Apple TV. In theory, I could probably swap the Nova for a decent AV amp and add a centre speaker for a 3.1 set up, but performance against the Nova is a bit of an unknown. The lounge doesn’t suit rear speakers unless they are wireless.

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From experience, consistency of presentation outweighs raw quality of the front two channels. And consistency of usability too.

I’ve done the AV “bolt-on” in the past when I had Linn amplification and speakers. Adding a Yamaha AV processor, Mission rears, and a Ruark centre. This is the classic Frankensystem scenario many follow when using AV bypass. And yes, the clarity and drive of the main stereo pair was ahead of what the AV processor could drive with speakers matched at it’s level and initially impressive. But every time I heard an entry level AV setup comprised of a low cost AV receiver and a dedicated matched 5.1 speaker package, it blew my Linn fronted system out of the water for viewing experience. And every [reasonable] AV package was the same. Despite having nowhere near the fidelity and drive as the main stereo, dedicated packages presented total consistency of presentation which was rock solid and more immersive. And as surround formats have evolved to be full range in all channels (old Dolby Pro Logic used mono rears with limited frequency range. Followered by early Dolby Digital which was more compressed on the rear) the importance of matching all speakers has grown.

It’s not about obvious cheap effects like the spaceship overhead or the monster behind you. Scenes like in a cafe with a natural echo on voices and cutlery just click as more real when all the speakers and amps are matched. You’ll get a lot of mileage for blockbuster effects on a mixed Frankensystem but a dedicated AV setup will give a more convincing experience across the board.

I even prefer a sound bar (albeit a higher end one) to the main stereo. Centre locked dialogue regardless of seating position and psudo surround effects completely matched to the front sound stage. And then there is the simplicity of one remote. The TV remote will control the AV amp. No switching sources or getting up or two remotes.

Once I realized the benefits of consistent presentation, I would never do a hybrid system again. They cost a lot more (people always throw money at an expensive centre to match their existing stereo speakers but it’s often not quite perfect; and a higher end AV amp to match their stereo but again - not the same. And for all the money low cost well matched systems using the same amp and same or matched speakers outperforms it. If the additional speakers including separate front speakers is out of the question, I suggest borrowing the most high end sound bar and sub package you can. My order of AV precedence is:

  • Fully dedicated AV amp and speakers.
  • Higher end sound bar
  • Plain ol’ stereo

Hybrids with AV bypass mode don’t even factor in anymore.

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Thanks @feeling_zen, very informative as always. I mentioned this option above, which my your logic might be feasible?

I have Totem Hawks and the matching Storm sub and could add a Totem Rainmaker centre speaker with a nice Marantz AV receiver, giving a 3.1 set-up. Just not sure how it would compare against the Nova 2.1 option. Then there is the 5.1 Sonos thing with wireless rear speakers….

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I can’t really say what would suit someone else but if you most watch TV and there are two of you (so no no sweet spot), I’d use the Nova elsewhere where it is appreciated (ditto the Hawks) and throw in a high end sound bar with a blu-tooth sub. This is how I ran with my 55" 4K TV for several years despite having the mains system and speakers either side of the screen.

People love to hate Bose but their flagship soundbars are really great for viewing. They will “throw” sound effects without rears but they also have wireless rears you can buy separately. You might be surprised what it does with the sub alone. JBL to have one that is reputed to be comparable but I can’t vouch.

I’d never bother with an AV processor for less than 5.1.

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Must admit, I beg to differ here. We have an old Arcam AVR600 feeding line outs to an SN3 (in AV bypass) and a NAP V175. Speakers are PMC20 23 and 20.C across the front and Tannoy Revolution R1’s as rears. An NDAC fed.by an ND5XS2 deals with music into the SN3. I strongly feel that the Naim amps are better than the Arcams (which were very highly regarded in their day). This provides a single system which is equally suited to both music and TV and deals well with the situation where a single room has to fulfil both duties.

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I used to run a Denon AVR-4800 thru 552/500 + 175. Then I swapped in a better Denon AVP-A1 HDCI av pre, and finally a Naim AV2. All three setups worked very well.

I loved 552 unity gain. I used a $35 ground isolator to eliminate the hum between the systems. Without unity gain, I would not have put up with adjusting volume with two pots.

I was going to swap in a new Sony STR-AZ7000ES amp. The Sony is so good on its own that I decided to run the two systems side by side into different speakers in the same room, and traded in my 175 and AV2.

One consideration was I finally added Control4 automation to just the AV system, to support distributing AV to other rooms. The complexity (and expense!!) of Control4 is only justified, IMHO, because multi-room and multi-source I am used to with the Naim system are hard to achieve for AV without a system like Control4, I find. And I decided NOT adding the Naim system to Control4 was better/simpler. It all works exactly the way I want, and the family like it, too, which is not always guaranteed, hard as I try! :slightly_smiling_face:

Extending rec room AV to the kitchen display with minimal clutter in the kitchen, other than the C4 remote, is a real win.

Good luck, whichever way you go.

Nick

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Well my main system is also PMC Twenty5.23s driven by a 282/250 which is significantly better than the Denon AVR and Dali front three speakers but it doesn’t have the same consistency. It can be quite thrilling but I feel the fully matched Dalis on all 11 channels driven by the same type of amp really cements in the more nuanced and subtle surround effects. While my 11 channels of Dali ATMOS speakers weren’t cheap, they certainly cost less than a PMC centre channel let alone finding a 175.

In your case you have the matching centre and matching power amp which I’m sure helps a lot. If the rears had been from the same PMC family, I probably wouldn’t consider the setup you’ve described as hybrid. It seems close to a dedicated AV setup with uncompromised stereo capabilities.

One thing to consider that I haven’t mentioned is upgrades. When the systems are completely separate, an upgrade never throws a spanner in the works or impacts the other in any way. It’s common for upgrading components in the stereo half of a hybrid system to hit problems like needing a different centre speaker or having no matching centre available. Or losing unity gain. Or having different connectivity requirements.

In short:

  • If you bolt on at the same level as the stereo it is prohibitively expensive.
  • If you bolt on a lower level, it is a disjointed presentation.
  • Either way, the systems become linked from that day on. What you do to one may affect the other.
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I would agree that if you have the physical space and other family members approval to have both a stereo system set of speakers and a dedicated surround sound system set of speakers all in the same room ( for me the main family lounge room), then yes for optimal surround sound a dedicated set of matching speakers will provide the best sound quality.
However, many people, me included are not allowed to do that and thus have to build a surround sound system around their normal optimised for music stereo pair of speakers, which is where AV Bypass (Hybrid) system are a real practical advantage, I accept that that is a compromise for surround sound, but with careful matching of the centre channel speaker and buying a good quality subwoofer and other surround speakers you can build a very good sounding surround system using your very good stereo speakers.
Many people have no choice but to take this AV Bypass route and can still have a very good sounding surround system, I certainly dont feel Im missing out much sound quality wise with my Hybrid AV Bypass 5.1 System ( Im also not allowed to have any more than 5.1 speakers in our main family lounge room).

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I use the same left and right speakers for my Main system 500DR based and AV system. I use a Beresford speaker/amp switch.

I just manually use the switch between amps to use my speakers with either amp.

I don’t use a centre speaker either. It goes through left and right.

The AV amp is quite high grade Anthem which will go 11 to 2. I am using it 6 to 1.

The additional expense came with a set of Superlumina speaker cables to go into the switch.

I have been using the Beresford switch for around 8 years. It also enables me to listen to my system in the conservatory and garden as the switch allows two amps and two swts of speakers.

I was using a center speaker but when I tried it without into my Focal Sopra 2s I got more benefit. It was also a practical issue as I wanted my TV low slung and the AV amp and TV boxes are in the unit below.

So I don’t use my Naim amps at all for AV duties. It all goes through the Anthem.

Having used various set ups over the years being able to use my main speakers sounds much better than using lesser AV speakers. Likewise I don’t miss a centre speaker.

There are two surround speakers and two rears upper.

I could add more speakers which would be two rears and two fronts upper.

The upper speakers are for Atmos.

I am sure it could all be better set up but it sounds pretty good.

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