Welcome and seasonal greetings Olaf. With primarily vocal and jazz (which tends to be upper/middle register sound), I suspect the B&Ws play very well. The issues around an amplifier’s power and control stem (generally) from when lower register bass is played, especially with increased volume. If you don’t play music this way and/or don’t tend to rock/pop, then you may never come across this.
To respond to others:
@frenchrooster – you’re right that you don’t need Statement amps to drive the B&Ws well, but B&W’s own recommended amp specs are 50-500wpc in to 8ohms (unclipped), and a 300 is rated 90wpc (8ohms), with an ability to drive down to 2ohms – i.e. less than the B&Ws require per the test measurements above. You do need something more powerful than a 300(DR) to deliver-out controlled bass, especially at volume. This can mean, in simple language, an amp won’t even appear to try to play the bass – it’s there, but it simply hasn’t got the required power to make the 'speakers perform. Worse, it just sounds flabby and uncontrolled, and may be injurious to the amp in extremis.
It’ll be interesting to learn how good the NC350s are with such challenging 'speakers, as we all know there’s been a gap in Naim product suite between the 500DR and Statement i.e. an ‘affordable!’ mono-bloc option for situations like this.
It’s rare these days for people to listen to my advice. We’ve had so many examples of people buying speakers that are too much for their electronics and then not being happy. As I wrote above, using £20k speakers with a bare NDX2 is just asking for trouble. And that’s before considering the amplification. The answer is either to spend a shedload on source and amplifiers, or take the speakers back and get some that actually match. It’s fine to say ‘I’m in love with my speakers’ but if they can’t play music properly then what’s to love?
I think we listen but peoples circumstances are different. I live in a place where there’s no s/h market. The 803d4 are my end game speakers, my 250dr is not. Is my system balanced? No. Will it ever be? Probably not but sometimes it’s just easier and cheaper this way. Saying that buying the 803s was the most significant upgrade I ever did even if they’re under powered.
I have just spoken to B&W - very interesting perspective. They laugh a little at the rep for having hard to drive speakers. That may have once been true but they disagreed - however this is dependent on many factors. Room size is a significant one. My shift in size of room and ceiling height would easily account for some of the challenges I am facing in their humble opinion. This would add up given my audition vs home room experience.
There were some points to note. A ‘bare’ NDX2 should not be the the first worry. He did acknowledge that power supply will help in terms of clarity and separation of the layers and 100% the presentation of bass.
However, whilst he knows people running the 801s on a 250DR they would recommend and amp that had as much coverage of the window the speakers are presenting i.e. 50 - 500w. The lower wattage amps may not drive well at low volumes and at louder level start presenting ‘dirty’ sound. Not sure the technical detail of this but it made sense LOLs.
The 300DR is often used with the 803D4s BUT given my room he said amplification could be the main issue - they suggest partnering the 800s with Chord, Rotel Michi, McIntosh, Musical Fidelity.
His advice - start with amplification then power supply @HappyListener.
Whilst I don’t disagree overall with the point you’re making, if I read B&W’s spec correctly, their recommendation is peak power not RMS. The NAP 300 claims 500VA transient capability despite its modest 90W RMS into 8ohms.
To imitate the lines spoken in the film Jaws ‘you’re gonna need a bigger amp - and you’re gonna need a better source (to deliver better bass performance to start with)’ i.e. nothing which hasn’t already been said here, and succinctly by @HungryHalibut .
IB – we all know around here that Naim amps punch above their weight (so to speak), but expecting a NAP300(DR) to deliver taut & punchy bass at volume in to these B&Ws in a larger space (as UK living rooms go), is a big ask – and will a bare NDX provide the bass quality to start with (?), as is the proposition here. Even if it does, the 300 is being asked to perform heroic duties here IMHO.
Unless my numeracy is awry, in a span of 50-500w at 8ohms, 90wpc is some way down the register, even with the current capability you mention.
The question is whether the OP would be happier with lesser speakers and the money at this stage spent on source - I suspect not, as it appears to me s/he likes the speakers and the sound of music played through them, but is seeking that bit extra to make them perfect for him/her, and seems to recognise the possibility that better amplification would do that, which generally seems to me to be the nearest there is here to a consensus. The source can be improved later, to even greater satisfaction, whereas I don’t see where the enjoyment would be in having lesser speakers that don’t have the character the OP clearly wants and likes, thereby maximising detail but no love. He/she appears to accept that the system balance is not ideal at the moment, and that is inevitable, at least when upgrading economically.
Welcome to the ‘cult’ of HiFi! You’ve picked up some very nice pieces of gear, but it seem like there may be some work to do in terms of integration.
Some have suggested this is a poorly balanced system, which is true to an extent, but your NDX source could be a lot worse, and the preamp you’re running is also no slouch, and your speakers are clearly more than capable.
Personally, I would start by hiring a professional to help you with the room acoustics before changing anything. If a day of analysis and a few $ in room treatment don’t fix the issue, THEN start swapping gear. Your dealer should have experience with this, but if not, look for an acoustician or acoustical engineering company. We work with these professionals all the time in design and construction. They have all the right measurement tools, and they typically have very practical advice. Odds are god that your the bass is there, you may just need to adjust the speaker locations and work out the room anomalies to find it.
I do agree that the next logical point to address would be the source, so either a PSU on the NDX, or an upgraded streamer. I’ve proven this tactic for myself over the years, and I can vouch for the efficacy of upgrading your source to improve clarity, bass impact, low end precision, etc. the bonus in sorting the room acoustics first, you’ll get the most out of any following upgrades.
To summarize, your system is already dabbling in the very high end, and once we’re this far up the diminishing returns curve, the improvements are decreasingly significant in proportion to money invested. The one glaring aspect I see as possibly deficient is an investment in room treatment. I’d bet that $1000 in room analysis and treatment will improve your experience and satisfaction more than spending $3-5000 on gear.
I’m not arguing anything about whether or not the 300 is ideal, but pointing out that my understanding of B&W’s recommendation of 50-500W “unclipped programme” means peak or transient power, not RMS. The 300 spec says its transient capability is 500VA. VA = volts x amps, which to all intents and purposes is watts, i.e. the 300 has a peak power capability of up to 500W… Its 90W RMS capability is irrelevant in relation to B&W’s spec.
Yes this is 100% something I am now thinking as the one factor that keeps showing up is the room compared to the demo room. Thanks for your advice and I will report back!
Can you explain in simple terms for me? Forgive stupid questions. The B&W guy said that whilst not the amp they would demo the speakers with that he didn’t see huge issue with the 300DR.
IB – I get it - but is it not the overriding point here that the B&Ws are ‘current hungry’, with some very challenging facets and, ideally, you don’t want to run an amp at the top of its operating window in to these beasts? They need an amp to show them who’s the boss!
As an aside, a 500-series dealer I know was amazed at the improvement in performance when they hooked their larger B&Ws up to a full Statement rig when they did dems for the latter. It wasn’t just better quality, the enhanced control was astounding.
I’m not saying there’s a huge issue with the 300 (it is @HappyListener who suggested that). I’m saying that on paper the 300 does appear to meet B&W’s spec. Whether it suits, and brings what you want, only you can decide by trying.
When I had PMC EB1i speakers my expectation, were I to try a Naim power amp, was that nothing less than the 300 stood a chance of doing what I wanted. The new 350s appear to be far better - but of course at a cost.
You’ve picked up some very nice pieces of gear, but it seem like there may be some work to do in terms of integration.