Sorry, I should have been clearer - my use of the word solution wasn’t meaning solution to your problem, but to the cost of speaker cables which had prompted my post. I had no reason to expect it to make either speaker better or worse in respect of the difference you have observed.
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Thanks for the clarification - makes perfect sense. Ideally I’d have the HiFi kit between the speakers, but we have to compromise for the sake of domestic harmony 
Those frequency spectra are quite interesting, the B&W much more uneven in response so the SF sounding better overall isn’t surprising. (Though teenagers with hearing up to 20 kHz might find cymbals over-bright!)
Quite!
Much as I have tried to note the “faster” nature of the 803, both my wife and my younger son (22 years) consistently prefer the Serafino. It’s certainly smoother and gentler - but perhaps less “dynamic”.
I have taken this from Stereophile of my speaker the 802d3 which has a smoother frequency response than the 803 D4 you show. My dealer was selling off his 804d3, 803d3 and 802d3. In all the reviews I read they all said there was a big step up from the 803 to the 802 which is why I settled on the 802d3. Of course just my view.
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Many thanks for this - wow, that’s much better, isn’t it? The mid-range isn’t being squeezed out of existence. And IIRC, the Stereophile measurements tend to overemphasise the bass (this is a faux free-field response) and they have a caveat to this effect. In other words, the overall response should be smoother (at the low end) than the published curve.
It might be useful to get a copy of REW (free software) and a measuring microphone* and measure the responses at your listening position in your room - they might be quite unlike the review spectra, and that might help show what the issue is, though how much that will help find the solution is another matter.
*The one REW recommends is inexpensive, maybe £120, or 1/2-3/4 that used and easily sold on afterwards if not needed again.
Thanks for this - the scientist in me likes measuring things. I’ve downloaded a copy of the application and will try this out with my Blue Yeti Pro microphone.
(I’ve already been using the SpectrumView iOS app (OxfordWaveResearch) to monitor both speakers - slightly shocked that my 1 kHz test tone resulted in quite so many harmonics…)
I’ve now had an extended listening session with the 802 d4’s. Very nice speakers - certainly an improvement on the 803 and I think any owners can be very proud of them: better mid range and more bass presence - and way more “sturm und drang”.
So, end of story? Unfortunately not. I still miss the detail, layering and space that the SF Serafino G2 provides across a broad swathe of the critical mid range.
A good demo would be the opening of Vaughan Williams’ A Sea Symphony (I have the Haitink/EMI recording). Big beefy sound on the B&W, but so much richer, detailed and dramatic with the Serafinos. Perhaps less “punch-in-the-gut” bass, but the boominess I heard in the 803 and 802 speakers (the latter in a properly-treated listening room) was replaced with a far more controlled and nuanced response. Those Italians seem as sophisticated as they are seductive (and I can only imagine how their buxom sisters, the Amati G5 would appear…).
For fun, I also listened to the 801 d4 Signature. Now we’re talking! Finally we have a mid range that is - almost - up to SF standards - and provides quality bass without any hint of boominess: a well-controlled performance (at a price).
What about the top end? Switching from the much-derided Naim NAC-A5 cable to a shielded (Chord Epic X) cable doesn’t change the tonal balance - but there is a subtle - very subtle - cleansing of the sound picture (my cloth ears could perceive a very-slight change - but I did a blind test with my younger son whose hearing is sharper and he was adamant about the improvement). I wonder if this is due to reductions in the noise floor?
I’m now in a bit of a quandary. Most of the time I’m delighted with the sound of the Serafino G2, but occasionally I find it hard to follow a soprano vocal line (Emma Kirkby, with her very-pure voice, is a case in point). I suspect my hearing isn’t what it once was and I really could do with a bit more emphasis on sibilence: something that the B&W provides in great abundance, but which the SF seems to suppress.
Unless and until Chord Electronics comes out with a lossless EQ control for my DAVE (along the lines of that added to the Mojo 2), I’m going to have to weigh up going for an overly bright/brash sound versus a subtly nuanced/dampened sound. It seems I can’t have it all. But then, that’s life.
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Difficult choice. I am a big fan of Emma Kirkby and I too would miss the crystalline quality of her voice you can appreciate with the B&W diamond tweeter. I guess all speakers have their strong points and finding the speaker that gives the right balance is a difficult thing.
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Isn’t she wonderful? I met her in 1984 when she was giving a recital in Cambridge and she very graciously signed a CD cover for me. She was such a lovely, engaging person and we had quite a chat about CDs, as they were then very new. The fact that she had time for a lowly undergraduate spoke volumes and I’ve been a fan ever since.
Back to audio: my wife thinks I’m making a mountain out of a molehill - but she has better hearing than me and I do worry slightly about the future course of my hearing. I guess one could resort to digital EQ (not currently an option with my sound chain, but might be a possibility if I replaced the Synology NAS with a Mac Mini playing my music via Apple Music or Audirvana) - but I think that any “tone control” at this level is best avoided.
I do have the option of an ex-demo 801 d4. They’re pretty massive though; I’d be more tempted by an ex-demo 801 d4 signature…
First-world problems!
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I am increasingly questioning this philosophy. Conventional tone controls may adversely affect sound quality by their very presence in the signal path, which is where the notion originated 50 years ago, and dsp is said to possibly produce artefacts. But to view this dispassionately, if the tone controls/dsp correct inaccuracies in the sound spectrum, whether system (should not be in a perfect system - but what systems are perfect?) or room induced, or compensate for deficiencies in the listener’s hearing, or correct for reduced hearing spectral sensitivity when playing at low sound levels, then surely it is simply a question of which effect is worse: the adverse effect on sound quality caused by the tone controls/dsp themselves, or the limitations they are being used to correct? And I suspect that in most cases the adverse effect of the controls/dsp themselves will be orders of magnitude less significant than the benefits they bring.
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Crystalline… diamond… very good!
I hear from my local B & W dealer that there will be a price increase from 1st April.
This will bring the 802 D4 to £27K.
Already happened, Douglas - 1 March was the date (at least, according to various dealers I spoke to). Quite a whopper of a price increase, isn’t it?
When I auditioned the 802 (then in D2 guise), it was virtually the same price new as thd PMC MB2SE (~£18k). The PMC jumped up to £29k a while ago, so B&W are just playing catch up!
I was given April by my supplying dealer when we spoke yesterday. At price increase time there is usually ? a little flexibility.
When the D4 series came out, October 2022 from memory the 802 was priced at £22K. Shortly after it went to £24K and now to £27K.
It just makes things difficult all round. However, such is life.
I moved away from Naim amps to McIntosh last year after growing dissatisfied with the bright edge the Naim gave with B&W 803D3’s. The Mc has an 8 band equaliser and when in use is of no detriment to the sound that I can detect. I’ve spent quite a while getting the equaliser settings to a point where things sound good for less well recorded music suffering from compression and brickwalling. I’ve no intention of adusting further for individual albums but do now have a system I’m satisfied with…equaliser off for good revordings and on for less good ones. Works for me.
Yes, I’ve found several dealers prepared to honour the older pricing.
Also some good offers on ex-demo models. Any advice on purchasing an ex-Demo vs a new model?
It’s been my intention to buy new - but with a new D5 model expected within the next couple of years, I wonder if it’s worth paying a premium for a new speaker, mid cycle?
- And given that “The Sound Organisation” were offering 20% discounts last year off the OLD prices (i.e., buy a new 802 for under £20K) one would have to be a real mug to pay full price now!!!
Having said all this, any speakers I buy now will be expected to last at least the next decade, and probably longer…
More thoughts on Serafino G2 vs B&W 803 d4 (in the absence so far of a home demo of the 802 d4):-
As the 803s are run in, the sound is improving hugely. Still sound a bit brash to my ears: too much boomy bass and treble, but way more refined than at the start.
At the same time, I’m wondering if the Serafino sound is a little too contrived. Everything seems to have a faint “shimmer” over it. The tonality I noticed in the strings seems everywhere now: it’s a slightly raspy/grainy/hazy sound - perhaps even slightly veiled. Is this an engineered resonance that serves to broaden the midrange - a kind of gentle sunlit landscape, without hard contrasts?
Whilst the 803 has too much bass and treble and not enough mid range, it does provide a nice sparkle and a powerful punch. More critically, the instruments sound more incisive: richer and more real, unlike the rather spectral forms I’m getting from the Serafinos.
What the Serafinos (and I must emphasize, these are the G2 model which are a world away from the old SF sound) do well is to provide a sense of immersion, of "atmosphere’. The soundstage emerges out of speakers to envelop the listener, which can be very engaging. By contrast, the B&W have everything lined up as if on a string between the two speakers.
Sooner or later I’m going to have to make a decision - but it’s hard when one set of speakers is still a “moving target”. (I also suspect that the 802’s I’ve heard may not have been run in for long enough.)