Bi-amping with Supernait 2 plus Hi-CAP PSU and NAP250 DR

to sell his 250 dr the dealer will always recommend…

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This is interesting then, and I hadn’t thought of this as an option. But it begs the questions, if I have two boxes for amplification, is a SN2 bi-amped with a 250, better than a SN2 and HiCAP.? I’d be running with an NDX2 and XPSDR and have a 4 box limit in my setup and need a headphone stage.

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282/250/hicap / ndx2 would be the best 4 boxes.:sunglasses:

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I’d homedemo the sn3.

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For my money I would go 282, 200 DR, NDX 2, XPS DR as a sensible balanced system based around a 4 box limit.

Not sure how this helps the OP although I think he is pretty set on this 250DR anyway so probably no harm in a little derail!

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his speakers need apparently more power. Your quattro seems tempting too.

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Ahh forgot about that! NAP 500 then! Non DR second hand. Probably not much more than a new 250 DR!

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Is that per channel ? :wink:

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Still cheaper than the speakers so I don’t see why not actually! Would certainly drive the speakers well!

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Possibly, but need headphone stage. Unlikely to go separate preamp until it includes a headphone stage. Looks like HiCap, SN2, XPS DR and NDX2 then, gets the best out of the SN2.

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or something like this beautiful headphone amp from Woo audio. Not really a fifth box…so little.

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Unlike some, my experience tells me that because they contribute most to the character of the sound, getting the speakers right is the basis of an enjoyable system, provided that the amp drives it reasonably - other components can improve after, every change bringing more from the speakers… It seems that that is where the OP is: speakers that are the ones for him/her, and amp OK, but room for improvement which is what is being sought.

I personally do not really get the concept of passive bi-amping (unlike active, which can be revelatory). If the options for replacing the amp suggested by others either does not appeal or are not viable, an alternative might be to get the 250 and try it simply in place of the SN’d power amp. (If it is available for home trial where you live then perfect. If not, can you lug your speakers to the dealer (not as good as at home, but you’ll hear the difference the amp makes). While doing that you could easily try biamping in the way you describe and see what you think. If good simply replacing the SN2”s power amp, you can live with that for a while and later change the SN2 for a preamp.

Alternatively buying secondhand might open the door to a better power amp than the 250…

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This is pretty much what my dealer said to me today in favour of bi-amping, though in my case, my speakers don’t need the extra juice. My dealer was saying if the speakers need more current, running a 250 as a power amp off the SN2 would be a good option, rather than running the bi-amp mode.

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Thank you all; I value your time and contributions.

I haven’t decided anything yet, and I’ll take my time… I consider the sound’s already hi end except at very high volumes; for now only the high definition network cables have arrived, and once I have been able to install them there has been a surprising improvement in the opening and depth of the sound, with better soundstage and image. Wishing for the rest of the interconnect and speaker cables, as well as the insulators…

This dealer is trusted: in more than 10 years of relationship, he has usually let me test the components at home, and has never sold me anything that has not meant a significant improvement; in addition, before opting for the SN2, he let me try an ATC SIA2 and a Leema Tucana II AE, both quite more expensive here, and, faced with the option of the NAP250 DR, I also raised him the option of Accuphase E-480, which is a beast that I don’t think would go badly either and at a price, including the DAC module, more than twice the 250 DR.

I’m beginning to think so, a much better option SN2+NAP250 DR in biamp mode than SN2+HI-CAP; but I will most likely be in a position to check it firsthand in the medium term.

Exactly, as information is emerging, the NAP250 DR seems like a great option, which I would certainly try to replace the power stage of the SN2 and in biamp mode with the SN2 also, and which, at any given moment, would allow me to swap the SN2 towards an NAC282, or even 252.

May be, but I’m feeling my speakers and my room ceiling ask for more power and juice. Any case, as I’ve pointed out, the addition of the NAP250 DR would allow both configurations to keep the most satisfying.

Well, thank you all, really, you’re helping me a lot to clarify and sort thoughts for a satisfactory and with informed guarantees of success decision.

I will comment when I can install, run up and test all the wiring; in the meantime, open to your thoughts and contributions.

We get on with it…

Greetings to the forum,

José.-

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UPDATE.

As I pledged, and to the extent that It can be useful to other forum members or users, and also as it breaks a spear in favor both of NAIM and of the method and patience, rather than the high budget, when it comes to doing things and achieving a high level sound quality, I update with the results achieved after careful system tuning, tweking and taming.

In short, optimized system and very satisfied with the sound quality in the current configuration.

  • SETUP
    As I have already mentioned, the room is large and spacious, with very high ceilings, so the room modes tend to brightness. As you can see in the pictures below, the current equipment is made up of the SN2 sourced by Cyrus Stream Xa (from NAS via router), Exposure 3010 S2 CD and Nad C546 BEE, driving ProAc K6 and SVS SB 16 Ultra (which I forgot to mention in the OP).
    The system tuning, tweking and taming has basically focused on cabling, isolation and dampering:

  • Cabling: interconnects, analog AQ Water and Oehlbach 2065 digital cinch; ethernet, Cat 7 - AQ Cinnamon; speakers, Chord Epic Reference and Sarum bridges; power cords: Chord C-Power; power strips, magnetically shielding Pro-Ject Power4Way and ProJect 6Way. All cabling blinded.

  • Isolation: Isoacoustics Gaia II + Orea Indigo (SN2) + Orea Bronze (3010 S2 + Stream Xa).

  • Dampering: Artesanía Audio MKIII (SN2) + AA Improved (Stream Xa).

  • Racking: standard good quality furniture supported and complemented by HIFI Racks wide stand (although glass is recommended, and in particular the Naim Fraim, room modes better carry quality wood, and the adoption of a dedicated rack is not feasible given the decoration of the multipurpose room).

  • In addition, for control of noise, and the possible effects on health, caused by electromagnetic and radiofrequency interference, ferrite claps in the ethernet wires and also a sunhgite pyramid from Carelia region have been introduced.

  • RESULTS
    Spectacular improvement in SQ: cohesive and coherent sound, realistic and very organic; a perfect focus image and wide, high, open and deep soundstage, with access to the different layers of the recordings; extraordinary dynamics, with dazzling transients; deep, detailed, accurate and pistonic bass, detailed, organic and velvety mids, and extended and bright, but without harshness nor sibilances, treble; magnificent resolution with very good macrodynamics and microdynamics (no problem to access lip clicks, sheet music steps, or background noise); magnificent PRAT and, as the system, especially the SN2 and cabling, have run up and settling, disappearance brightness by room modes, even up to almost 100 dB.

  • INTENTIONS
    Comment that, in attention to some of your comments, neither NAC282 nor NAC252 allow subwoofer connection except in high level mode, which is not compatible with the magnificent SVS SB 16 Ultra, from which I do not want to do without or renoding; in addition, I am not for the work out of the separates, because they would impose a furniture change, with the consequent introduction of a dedicated rack and countless black boxes that, in many cases, as I appreciate after a wide reading of the Forum, seem never to end. Only the current SN2 or NAC272 have adequate Sub Outs, so, in view of the result, and waiting for a possible NAIM upgrade of the current 272 in a both hardware and software MkII version, I will wait patiently with the current configuration, which, as I say, seems to us to be fully satisfactory.
    Despite the magnificent results achieved, or thanks to them, I clearly perceive the current system main limitation in the main source, the Cyrus Xa, so, my waiting deadline for a possible update of the 272 will be until Christmas, or spring at most, when, if still without news of the 272 MkII, I will upgrade the streamer with NDX2. It seems that the NDX2 is a magnificent streamer, both in combination with NAIM gear and regardless of previous and amplification, so this upgrade will always leave the door open to a possible higher-end integrated amplifier upgrade outside of the NAIM range of products. In any case, and depending on the synergy and improvement in the current ecosystem after the NDX2 introduction, I will asses the addition of HICAP + NAP250 DR for biamp the speakers or, directly, the move to a top-of-the-range integrated (Accuphase E-480, Luxman L-509X, Esoteric F-05, or so). We will see…

Bonus Track: Keep looking curious and paradoxical to me, as first ChrisSU and then GeoffC pointed out, that NAIM mounts a biamplification output in his top integrated amplifiers, and they provide biamplification schemes with them in its documentation, and then tell you that they do not recommend biamplification with their electronics. Similarly, I find it paradoxical that, as can be seen in the picture below, NAIM recommends a configuration of the SN2 with Focal Sopra (where by configuration, specifications and price, even without hearing them, the Sopra 3 does not seem to differ substantially in category from ProAc K6), and numerous opinions consider that the SN2 lacks the quality of adequately drive K6s, speakers that in principle, rather than excessive power, demand amplification and, above all, power from a certain threshold quality.

Yet, and finally, thank very much to the Forum, and all the participants in this thread, for their valuable contributions; although at first some of them scared me a little :grinning::grinning::grinning:, together they have helped me to find and articulate the most satisfactory system improvement and tuning path, as well as the possible ways of further future improvement.

Greetings to the forum, :wink:

José.

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What type of ferrite caps have you put on the Ethernet cable?
Mike

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Hi.

Normals and currents, adapted to the diameter of the AQ Cinnamon, purchased from Amazon; one to the input to the NAS and one to the input to the streamer. I do not know if the Forum rules allow such links, but the moderator will already say if necessary:

Ferrite Claps

In fact, I don’t notice any perceived difference in SQ with or without the ferrite claps, as with or without the shungite. But, although I still smoke and epidemiological research is not yet conclusive, I prefer to apply the criterion of prudence, more so with my 4-year-old son up and down, and I have a shungite pyramid near of each one of the four HIFI systems at home; I have a couple of acquaintances with testicle cancer, who usually carried the blissful smartphone in the front pocket of the trousers, and in both diagnoses, medical teams have pointed to the issue as a possibly related bad practice…

Those speakers will struggle with anything below a Nap 300 in a large room
biamp is a no-go, any dealer would only recommend biamp, looking at the profit side

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They would probably, certainly, improve enormously with NAP300, and that would be the idea if NAIM were about the task of updating the NAC272 within a reasonable time lapse; but the reality is that SQ is already awesome in the current configuration.

On the other hand, in my experience, passive biamplification can give very good results depending on the speakers and if well done; and these K6, at ProAc’s discretion, offer good results in passive biamplification.

From the SN3 review in Hi-Fi+:

The amplifier provided a lot of drive for rhythm sections and an infectious groove from the speakers, which in the first instance were Bowers & Wilkins 802 D3. These proved a pricey but very revealing partner for this amp and one that it seemed quite comfortable driving.

Considering that the SN3 improvement over SN2 seems clearly much more incremental than that of the SN2 over the SN1, and that B&W 802 D3 and ProAc K6 play basically in the same league, perhaps someone should tell to the good of Kennedy that SN3 is not good enough to drive those speakers, than the Stack Link streamer via iFi Pro iDSD DAC is not a source to match for those speakers and integrated, and that his system is not balanced; or perhaps speakers according to the room and of the best possible quality are the first condition for a resolutive system, and the best guarantee for SQ…

I don’t know… All I know is that I am delighted with the SQ that I have achieved with the configuration of this system, that it’s sounding better and better each day and that, as soon as these terrible storms due to Dorian’s boreal return to Europe and so anomalous here at this time of the year pass, I will enjoy the cuteness again with my music.

Cheers.