I’m considering a massive change to our set up. Junking the lot and getting back to Naim. Current set up:
Moon 260D CD Transport/Chord Qutest DAC/Moon 340ix amp/Klipsch Forte III horn loaded speakers (floor standers - and big). Let’s leave out cables and mains blocks for the moment!
Proposed system: Naim CD5si / Nait 5si / JBL L52 Classic speakers. There’s still a few of the Naim items floating around at good prices.
What has prompted this? A few things. Firstly a desire to get back to Naim electronics which I’ve used previously over very many years. I like what they do - but not suited to our speakers. Good as the Moon stuff is, I just feel it doesn’t have the sense of musical involvement that I used to get from Naim. Also I would like smaller speakers. The Klipsch are brillaintly realistic but sometimes I feel they are just too much. I would like a more domestically sized presentation. The Klipsch’s combined with the Moon electronics provide a deeply impressive impression of reality but still I feel that musical involvement is lacking. It’s big and real sounding and fun but just doesn’t engage me as much as I’d like. The other thing is that I’m not really comfortable having such large speakers that I can’t easily move if I need to.
I realise that the Naim CD5si and Nait5si are not on the same level as our Moon stuff but I’ve owned them (or an earlier incarnation) with nSats after we disposed our our big Naim set up many years ago now. They were extremely involving and entertaining - as was our previous Naim set-up. I miss that involvement. Obviously we won’t get the same sense of reality, of ‘being there’ but so be it. For what it’s worth my LP12/42-5/110/Kans (decades ago!) was the most musically enjoyable system I’ve ever owned. To get back to something approaching this would be lovely.
What do people think? Am I crazy to be considering it? Any thoughts, observations or experiences very welcome please.
I don’t know your equipment, so I’ve been looking it up. Those speakers are certainly big! I’ve read about Moon stuff previously and it is well respected. I’d suggest looking at a two thirds way house. Swap the Moon amplifier for either a Nait XS3 or, better, a Supernait 3. Then get some small speakers. There is something wonderful about a big amplifier and a small speaker, which is why I’d go for the Supernait 3, which has a bigger more solid sound than the small Naim integrated amplifiers. The Neat Petite Classics look excellent and have a nice retro look. The ProAc Tablette 10 is great but higher volumes in larger spaces will challenge them. My PMCs are really good and will match well with the SN3. The fabled ‘Naim sound’ comes very much from the amplifier, so you can simply connect your Moon and Chord. Once set up you can always look for a Naim CD player such as a CDS3, but ongoing maintenance will be an issue and I suspect sticking with the Moon will be a better bet.
Doing this will give you a great sound with the Naim groove and small speakers that won’t dominate. Going from £6,000 speakers to the £600 JBLs is probably not the best idea.
Have you heard the JBLs ? I have a pair (in blue) and have used them with a Nait 50, Atom and BD 12/160 and the only one that seemed to suit was the Atom. With the other amps they just don’t sound “Naim” The bass is thrown at you in dollops and the music seems to plod along.
They do present a big sound for the size of box but after extended listening that gets fatiguing.
The 5-series CD/amp is a good match for each other.
I’d suggest you try with the Forte loudspeakers before JBL.
A guy use these Klipsch loudspeakers with great success - behind a Rega IO amp though. (Which you should consider as well thinking musically involvement, I had my own IO up against other Naim amps and was rather surprised)
Notice Naim’s lack of service of most of their CD players, I’d check up on this before a purchase. Maybe its just your amp to change first ?
Thanks and plenty of food for thought. TBH I’m rapidly going off the idea. Just had a listening session and those Klipsch’s are so good. I would indeed love to get back to Naim but if it ivolves losing the Klipsch’s and replacing them with something not as good I’m not sure it’s sensible.
I don’t think I’ve thought this through properly. Your observations have helped a lot so thanks for that. I should say also that I would want to buy only new - just me.
Very pertinent observations. I think this has probably answered my question (ie am I crazy to be considering this?).
You could always try a Supernait 3 in place of the Moon with your existing Klipsches. Is that the plural, the apostrophe most definitely isn’t right. I have similar problems with my PMC twenty5.21is.
Hard to understand why you want to keep it,
as you wrote this
” The Klipsch’s combined with the Moon electronics provide a deeply impressive impression of reality but still I feel that musical involvement is lacking.”
You’re right about the apostrophe - what a fumb ducker I am! I did consider in the past swapping to a Supernait 3 with the Klipsch (I think the plural is probably the same as singular). Problem is two fold, (or should that be problems are two fold? -getting paranoid now). Firstly I really don’t think the voicing would suit Klipsch, which is why I originallly opted for Moon amplification. Being horn loaded the Klipsch are naturally assertive and keen sounding. They really need amplification that is on the smooth, sweet, refined and warm side of neutral and not too forward sounding. Otherwise they could easily be provoked into sounding relentlessly forward and aggressive. I’ve never actually heard a Supernait, but my experience of other Naim amps at home from 42-5/Hi-Cap/110 to Nait 3, Nait 5i-2 and 252/Supercap/Olive250 leads me to believe that the Supernait 3 wouldn’t be the happiest of marriages. The other problem is the very high sensitivity of the Klipsch (99dB) That’s good of course, but the Naim background hiss could and almost certainly would become intrusive. The Moon 340ix is completely silent. And I mean completely. Even with the volume turned way up and one’s ear against the HF horn there is no hint of any noise or hiss.
I do like the Moon amp and it’s a near perfect match for the Klipsch, other than a valve amp and I’m not going there. It’s just that sometimes I hanker after the Naim sound - or what I remember as the Naim sound, since I haven’t heard it for more than 10 years. Except when we did try a CD5si in place of our 260D transport/Qutest DAC. Not a very fair comparison I know and the Naim was very obviously way out of its depth.
Thanks @Skeptikal I’m surprised by that but I know you have one (a Supernait 3 I mean!) so you should know. But there’s still the hiss and the small issue of not being able to buy them any more. (I don’t want used).
Why would you need to move the Klipsch? If the circumstances in which you’d need to move them are unlikely to arise then I’d not worry about it.
I’ve auditioned the Moon stuff and have had the Qutest at home at length at least three times. The Klipsch are wonderful speakers with the right kit. I’m not sure you have the right kit. The Moon CDP does an awful lot right. It’s “all there” as some people like to say. It was the lack of engagement thing which did for me though. If I listened into the music it was hard to find fault, but the point was that I had to listen into the music because just listening to the music was, erm, a little boring.
I wasn’t in the market for the amp but I very much felt it had the same issues.
The Qutest is in many ways fantastic. I came to appreciate it hugely whenever I had it on loan but it also has very obvious weaknesses. Nothing fatal but not really a match made it heaven with the Klipsch. The Ks soundstage brilliantly. The Qutest has a very 2D soundstage. The Ks do rthythm brilliantly. The Qutest matched with a neutral or slightly dull system may well bring it to to life. Matcted with the Ks? It’s too forward. You’ll subconsciously find it too much and turn the Ks down to a level all the life goes out of them.
So, for me, you’ve great speakers but with a poorly matched everything else. Your Naim suggestions, and those of others, won’t solve any of that. I’d look at a better/smoother DAC and consider a valve integrated.
I think you are absolutely right to be cautious of pairing a Naim amp with your Klipsch speakers, especially a more powerful model such as the Supernait.
There are a few Klipsch dealers in the UK. One or two of them are also Naim dealers. I would suggest that you talk to some of them about your ideas. Good dealers are often adept at system building, and potentially a more helpful resource that the relentless ‘buy what I’ve got’ types who tend to frequent forums.
Erm, I thought you were totally hooked on large drivers and the immediacy of horns?! of course change if you fancy, but if I were in your shoes I would do a very thorough audition before any commitment. And beware of nostalgia, things are not always as good as your memory might tell you!
That is my main fear. I know from other non hi-fi related things that my memory can be very deceptive. I’m starting to think that the whole exercise has more to do with nostalgia than anything else. For instance I feel a totally irrational urge to buy the new Quad 33/303 and a pair of LS3/5a’s or the new Wharfedale Dentons! The new Quad looks gorgeous IMO and I’ve always thought LS3/5a’s and Dentons look as cute as could be. But at the same time I know very well it’s just a nostalgia thing. I’ve heard the Quad 33/303 (original) driving LS3/5a’s a number of times and the sound, whilst I can appreciate its merits, just isn’t for me.
That really hits the nail on the head. I hanker sometimes for a more ‘grab you by the throat’ type of performance than the Moon kit provides. The Moon stuff is excellent in many ways and in some ways I do find it superior to Naim. It doesn’t impose anything obvious on the sound. It doesn’t attempt to add excitement, it just lets the music speak for itself. So depending on the music it can be very hard hitting and forceful, or very delicate and unassuming. It’s a ‘slow burn’ as they say, and the more one listens the more one appreciates what its all about. Which is all good. But at the same time I find (from memory admittedly) the traditional Naim virtues of immediately grabbing the attention with PRaT hugely appealing and I do miss that. But apart from anything else, with the Klipsch it would be OTT I’m sure.
In the early 80s I had the Quad 33/303 driving Rogers Export Monitors, whilst good at the time, I traded for 32/Snaps/250 which was such a massive upgrade that I consider myself lucky to get out of the Quads.
