So you must think the same for speakers cables, power cords, powerblocks, …etc
If you can read your favourite numbers and measures, the components have no credibility to your eyes?
You obviously don’t understand a word of what I’m saying FR.
And please don’t try to insult me by the phrase “favourite numbers & measurements”, its just unnecessary & childish, apart from you being completely wrong in that assumption.
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It’s not childish at all. It’s just tiring to read your constant need to have measures, specs, and numbers for all components shared by members, specially Ethernet cables.
I reserve myself the right to criticise that, even if it bothers you.
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Without measurements hifi would be impossible. Indeed, a great deal of modern life would be impossible. We would still think that objects of different weights fell at different rates, that disease is caused by bad air, that comets presage important events etc. You seem to dislike measurements - but they are essential to our understanding of the world.
We have instruments capable of measuring things to much greater precision and discrimination than most of our senses can. And we also have many examples of where our senses - including sight and hearing - can be comprehensively fooled. To reject measurement is to reject one of our most powerful tools we have that enables us to understand the world.
However, I do understand that it is very convenient to reject measurement when one wants one’s subjective experience to count above anything else.
What scientific evidence? Is there a scientific evidence that a 104 dB speakers with 8 watt set tube amp will sound better or worse vs Apogee 84 dB and 800 w krell amps?
A scientific evidence that superlumina cables will sound better than hi line or chord music?
We just need our ears. Only that.
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Measurements are just a minimal indication. It will never show how the components will sound. Some amps measure very badly but sound very musical.
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FR, this thread about ethernet cables was quite civilised up to your last few posts, we really don’t need your interventions that appear to be making pointless & misguided arguments.
They measure badly in certain respects. The interpretation of those measurements can tell you a lot about the way the amp will sound. For instance, an amp could have a lot of distortion, but sound OK (though inaccurate) because it suffers, for instance, from even order harmonic distortion. To our human ears this sounds OK, as opposed to odd-order harmonics. Valve amps particularly can have even order harmonics and sound OK. But we know this, and know that we can worry less about that than about odd order harmonics.
Mike-B,…That is right,.I only report the result,what we have come up with,here on this forum.
I’m not going to sit and post our test-reports in any thread,.there goes the limit of my engagement here on this forum.
Members get,.from what I put in about our listening-tests,themselves make an assessment if I’m just out and fantasize in the blue.
Or if I seem to know what I’m writing about.
This below,.is what I wrote earlier in the…
“Ethernet Switch and Cables Mania”-thread.
Since 1994,.these below mentioned have had great confidence in our tests.
So unfortunately Mike-B,.your opinion weighs easily in these contexts.
"We were known for our tests in large parts of HiFi-Sweden.
And we have tested alot.
Hi-fi companies, Distributors, Dealers, Manufacturers, Constructors…for many,many,many years and still,.sending products to us.
Yes it happened,.that even manufacturers overseas,sent products to us because so we would test them."
In addition,.I socialize with several hifi-designers,.two are well known on the world-market.
So I know how they construct, build, measure and listen,.to come up with a finished product.
The main instrument at the end of a construction is,.the ears and the senses.
And when testing and evaluation,.your ears.
And that’s the result,.from our ears,that we report about here Mike-B.
But you did not answer my question,.so I specify it a little more.
“Answer concretely,.how you would test an Interconnect-cable according to your “requirement image”…If you are going to buy a new one for your music-system.”
/Peder🙂
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I didn’t said “ok “ but musical, and sometimes very musical. I have never chosen components on specs and measurements since 25 years.
Just read reviews, forums, personal experiences, , advice of dealers, and finally my proper ears .
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And the scientists are back, in number. As each time. I see IB, Beachcomber, and very soon we will see Xanthe, Nbph, joining their favourite discussions.
Hey guys, why not join a scientific forum ?
Of course your ears are the final arbiters - What you hear and don’t hear depend on those rather undependable appendages and attached wetware. So for instance if your hearing is not too good at high frequencies then speakers or systems that emphasise those frequencies may well suit you better than other systems. That system may not reproduce sound accurately (I not sure that any system does that), but for your particular hearing (and room) their deficiencies and those of your hearing might complement each other. Measuring your hearing acuity could, in principle, help you to match up with a system more easily.
I must admit that I am puzzled by your apparent dislike of measurement. Of course, by trying all sorts of combinations of components you will, given time and patience, hit upon something that works for you.
But if you can hear down to, so 20 Hz (not many can - certainly not at my (our?) age) and you like good, controlled, bass then you may find it advantageous to look for speakers that measure well down to that frequency, or as near as you can find. And similarly if you can hear up to 20 KHz, again a system that can achieve that will be worth looking at. If the system can produce frequencies between those two limits with a reasonably flat response curve, then I would suggest that you seriously consider it - no matter what other people may say. After all, their hearing might be fairly rubbish.
Best way I have found also…the certificates I have with my BJCs are meaningless.
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Did it served you? All these specs you seem to give a lot of importance.
I see you have an all Naim system, from source, electronics to speakers. You trust just Naim apparently to choose your system.
Absolutely, it tells absolutely nothing.
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It certainly did. I start by looking at the specs that matter to me. Now in my dotage I cannot hear much below about 45 or 50 Hz - if that low. And my upper frequency has gone - not much above, I think, 14 or possibly 15 KHz. But it used to be much better.
I looked for speakers with a good frequency response, reasonably flat, good off-axis response etc. In terms of power amplifiers I want reasonable power, fast slew rate, low distortion. For pre-amps again I want a reasonably flat response, multiple inputs (less important now, though) and recording options (again, no longer important).
What took me to Naim was these things but also build quality and customer service, which Naim excels at. I built quite a few amplifiers in my early days (though I did not design any of them).
In terms of sound I am quite sure that I could have chosen from any of several brands - and have often thought of trying some other kit, but really only out of curiosity. I have not yet heard anything I like better, though there are other systems that sound as good.
I use to use a mixture of different manufacturers for different components, and at different times - NAD, Nytech, Armstrong, ATC, Pioneer, Sony and others. Few if any really sucked. I have always thought that the speakers are the weak link, and thus the most influential in terms of sound.
For instance, years ago I bought a pair of Naim 702 speakers (I think - Mordaunt Short bass/mid and Goodmans tweeters). They had a particular character - so much so that when my brother-in-law bought a pair of speakers from Roy George (of Naim fame), which he had made using the same drives and crossover, but in a differently-shaped cabinet made from lignocrete (mix of cement and sawdust), they had a very similar sound to mine, despite very different amplification and source. There was a definite family resemblance.
But I digress. I narrow the field using specs (and, yes, reviews, but with a huge shovel-full of salt) and then listen. The last is important because my hearing is not the same as someone else’s.
Why not give up on the science & engineering bashing? Without both of them you wouldn’t have the developments in audio that you use for your listening tests!
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Measurements indeed may not tell everything, whether because 1) In some cases the resolution of measurement isn’t as fine as differences the human ear/brain combination can detect. Or 2) a factor of significance has not been measured (which could be because it is something that the tester is unaware it is significant, or because the tools to test are not available).
Listening tests are also limited: 1) most particularly, they can be subject to unintended bias, which can be from a variety of causes - but is avoidable by blind, preferable double-blind, testing (though curiously even single blind testing, which is quite easy, appears to be extremely unpopular). 2) They are subject to the variability of the human hearing, especially where comparisons are over time (as with “burn-in). And 3), unless conducted in a statistically valid way (including with multiple listeners and only one variable), they depend on the personal taste of the listener - however when choosing for one’s own use that of course is not negative.
With ethernet cables there are two questions: 1)will it reliably transmit the digital information on the network, without corrupting it. For that, certification to the relevant cable standard may be all that is needed. 2) Will some other factor have an adverse effect somewhere in the receiving system? Objectively, measurements could be made of any factor thought of as possibly of relevance (e.g. RF level) - though quite a bit of research may be needed to determine what levels measured might be of significance, which may well need subjective testing to determine. Subjectively comparisons could be made of one item against another, with blind testing (by multiple people to remove personal subjectivity) - though to be meaningful more widely research for this would be necessary, e.g. by repeating in different systems and environments
So far we have reference to measurements, but as far as I recall only in relation to the data transmission standard, so other than confirming that data is likely to be correctly transferred it gives no indication as to whether there might be something else happening of significance. And we have loads of reference to subjective evaluation, which may be very valid to the individual in the system tested, but as far as I recall with no blind, let alone double-blind, testing, so with the very real potential of bias, and of precious little meaning to anyone else, especially with a non-identical system/setup.
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peder, I really do not respond to this kind of post, you seem (again) to be trying to be argumentative, what is this “requirement image”?. However I will put it down to your english language rather than intent.
I select a cable based on a number of things, if the cable is important & if possible the final choice is made when I listen on my system at home. And yes I do like to check the specifications, if these are not available I proceed with caution or even rejection, this is ingrained from a professional working life that insisted on this.
But regarding ethernet cables, I am not a cable maniac, I am not prepared to obsess & listen to everything on the planet & I am not prepared to pay for a cable that is the price of a streamer. I do read this forum & others for opinions & if there is a strong sensible agreement, then I take note, but sorry to say this forums threads have collectively failed to deliver that w.r.t. ethernet cables.
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Yes, the measurements allow someone to make judgements as to what might meet their requirements, whether full range and uncoloured, or curtailed and coloured if that is what they prefer. (And of course other measurements may assist, like phase and decay etc.)
Then subjective listening, in a single system (ideally the person’s own including the room) enables the listener to pick the character that best suits - which will include things that have been measured, but the ear’s sensitivity to what may appear to be very minor differences can make a difference between liking one rather than another, even when tge measurements are very similar.