The evidence is when I listen. Only that. It’s the evidence of feeling myself closer to the real sound.
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I tried the BJ cat 6a which measure well and have been disappointed.
I just lost my time.
I have heard some expensive gear from Soulution and Esoteric, which measure particularly well. But wasn’t involved by the sound.
Maybe what you prefer is the sound with spurious artefacts of noise, maybe the purer sound from a better conformance component is what you don’t like. It’s just a thought, OK no problems.
Where are you using the ethernet cables you’re considering/comparing?
With your Melco, do you need to use a network at all? I thought it has a rendered output that can dpfeed a DAC direct: have you tried that?
And otherwise I think it has a dedicated ethernet output to connect with a streamer without going through a network.
I have never once looked at a measurement buying (or not buying) hifi gear. I’m not even sure what I’d be looking at. I go by sound, function, price, and review. I also don’t bother with measurements of photography gear, even though I do know what the measurements mean. But I’m also careful not to jump on the latest greatest thing without doing my homework or knowing it’s something that will suit my purpose and/or trying it out first. Maybe it’s foolish of me, I don’t know. I think of it as commonsense.
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Just as I think it is commonsense to check specs/measured performance as a part of shortlisting hifi gear, cameras and lenses, cars etc…!
Yet despite that you’re perfectly prepared to take random pot shots at someone who has real practical experience of using the scientific and engineering principles to develop better audio amplifiers.
That smacks of double standards.
And there is a possible third category, who observe the subjective views of others and then carry out their own listening tests.
The specifications, test results and objective measurements are available for all to see, well for most bits of kit. There are of course some manufacturers who do not publish such objective measures but quite often they are ‘outed’ by third parties who do.
Anyway my point is, if you want to see key specifications you can probably hunt them down if it makes you feel better. But as we all know, passing tests and having impressive specifications is no guarantee of achieving good (subjective) sonic results, with such variables as the other items the kit in question will be used with, the listening environment, personal tastes etc. This ignores other psychological influences such as expectation bias, mood, burn-in, if you believe this to be psychological rather than a physical phenomenon, etc.
And that is where a forum such as this becomes relevant. If you want specs then search the net or look at the manufacturers published data on the kit in question. If you want to delve into the murky, and less scientific, world of user experience, then what better place to come than a place like this.
As long as you are not swayed by forceful opinions and that you read with a healthy degree of scepticism and, most importantly, as long as you try for yourself, then this fine place can be a treasure trove of valuable information.
Just one piece of advice when reading stuff on here, and I can still hear my Granny telling me this when the big boys shouted in the playground, she said, ‘empty vessels make most noise’. Not always true I have found, but often the case.
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I’ve wondered myself if having a quality made to spec cable is influencing the sound. It makes sense to me. I’d love to test my AQ out of curiosity.
I believe AQ Vodka has not tested well in a Computer mag, when tested against other cables, and didn’t achieve its Cat rating IIRC. But that is kinfd of missing the point when most on here are interested if the effect it has on SQ.
I Know, I know, that is just expectation bias telling us to buy, or justifying the money we have already spent. Bloody subjectivity, just hocus pocus.
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NO,.Not If You Use The Installation-method Tune-Dem.
• It is based on picking up the musical parameters.
There,.it never distinguishes in perception what is better.
• Are you listening for sound,.details,soundstage etc.
There,.is it as you say.
Innocent_Bystander,…Here you have the big problem on this forum,.nobody uses the same installation-method anymore.
The knowledge and experience about this with system-installation varies incredibly much,.just look in the “System Pic’s”-thread…so understand some what I mean😉.
And,.when not even the dealers install the systems according to the same method,how can customers learn.
For example:
One in our group,.spent a few hours at one of Sweden’s major Naim-retailers,to show him how to install a system.
The reason for this was,.that their demonstration-system sounded dreadful when he came in and would listen.
It’s quite scary,.that a prospective customer shall teach a retailer to set up a system.
But unfortunately this is not unusual.
When he was finished,.the retailer was surprised of how much better it played.
Previously,.all of the systems were installed after a Flat-Earth-think.
Nowadays,.it is Round-Earth, Flat-Earth, Cleaner and Clearer and everything in between.
On my forum,.Lejonklou’s forum etc,we use Tune-Dem as the installation-method.
Then it does not matter,.if you who give the advice and tips live in Sweden, USA, UK, Spain, Italy, Germany, etc,etc.
Everyone receives the same results from the advice given,.this without exception.
One question,.you who were with in the 1980’s.
When you heard the classic system Linn LP12, Naim Nait, Linn Kan for the first time.
Were you swallowed up by the music,.or do you asked to look at the technical specifications before any purchase.
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No,No,No…absolutely no attempts at insults.!
We have two camps here,a…
• Just Listen…As Simply As That-gang.
…and a smaller…
• Tech-spec-gang.
Nothing weird about it 
.
/Peder🙂
You have described the Tune-Dem method previously, in another thread, though I can’t locate it to refer to it. Never having heard of it before your mention I recall thinking about it at the time, and trying it myself moving a speaker, but in the end gave up: it does not make sense to me: music is not about following the tune, but about absorbing the whole content of the music - at least it is to me. I would not enjoy music as much if the tune was absolutely spot on, the absolutely as clear as it could possibly be, but other parts of the music missing, for example no low bass when the music has low bass, or having exaggerated midrange, or whatever. Maybe I didn’t understand your description of Tune-Dem correctly, but I think we don’t all listen to music in the same way - how we relate to it may be different, how it absorbs us in it, what we hear when we listen etc.
In answer to your question, I never listen for detail or soundstage, though both of those may strike me without listening for them. Like the first time I heard Dave, and heard a clarity I had never heard or imagined before, a feeling of the music opening up like a flower before me, or like the time I heard a voice speaking from right next to me on the sofa, placed there by the three dimensional image - drawing the narration outside the music.
One problem I have is that good music swallows me up very easily, to the extent that I struggle comparing hifi components because I forget I’m supposed to be comparing and instead I get lost in the music, unless there is something very wrong like noticeably distorting, or ‘tinny’ like a transistor radio.
As I have said, I think we don’t all listen to, or hear, music in the same way. Your Tune-Dem approach, might work for you, and everyone in Sweden, but I don’t think it works for me. Similarly some people don’t like much bass in music - I don’t enjoy bass being absent or curtailed. Some people seem to want prominent rhythm with everything - not all music has that, and would sound wrong if emphasised. Some people think tapping their toes is a sign of a good system engaging them emotionally - I don’t find that toe tapping is any indication of emotional engagement though tears rolling down my face as I sit dead still transfixed may be.
I have never heard Nait or Kans. Everything I have read about them, however, suggests to me I would hate the sound of Kans. when I bought my first proper non-DIY speakers back in 1975, I auditioned 12 or 13 altogether, all having have very good reviews, and most the top of their respective manufacturers’ ranges. All but 3 I hated instantly on hearing, rejecting before the end of the first track. I am pretty sure that if Kans had been among the group, they would have been one of the instant rejects. What I picked, IMF TLS50, lasted me until I got their bigger brother 15 years or so later - and even today I enjoy those old IMFs and could live with them happily, even though I do now have better speakers. They simply play music, but without modifying it, or at least not in any obvious way.
I think it’s time to invoke the Japanese concept of umami, and by way of analogy I’m pretty sure there are lots of amps out there that measure much better than my little 35 watt/channel CB 110 but aren’t nearly half as engaging. Measurements and the finest ingredients will get you only so far, it’s when they are put together in a certain way (and sometimes not always ‘correctly’) that enriches the senses.
Of course, if I’m being shot into space or braking the car on a rainy night, I don’t want umami, I want solid performance based on testing and measurements. But when it comes to exciting my eyes, ears, nose, and mouth, it’s a different matter.
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Basically BJC are Belden cables patched in house with quality control.
I wonder how these will perform and what are the differences between various types of cat7a cables?
I can make them patched locally and have a good value cable compare to my AQ diaomon:)
I bought the BJC CAT6a by mistake. It’s the NACA5 of Ethernet cables. Stiff and gets the timing and fundamentals of music right,
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It’s something that originated with Linn, search Linn Tune-Dem or go to their www Docs
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I think you are missing my point. If I’m buying an Ethernet cable then I want it to be fully conformant to those standards.
If you prefer your system with AQ Vodka then that is fine. However, would you agree that simply because in your system you prefer AQ Vodka that is no reason to assume that it is ideal for me?
By measuring things properly, I am happy my systems are both working really well. By listening to them I am convinced the sound quality is excellent. I am 100% happy and there are no tweaks required.
To me, the results of listening tests conducted on a system nothing like mine in an environment that is probably nothing like my cottage are not useful guides. I think you have to listen alone to know what works for you.
I only use my system to listen to music these days, whereas the obsessives seem to have forgotten the music and use their systems as if they were a dealer searching for that next great cable. I really don’t care if there is £10,000 streaming cable out there that some obsessive thinks is the best sounding cable.
Put simply there is no best sounding cable, switch or router or anything else. These are merely opinions. I do not understand the concept of a skilled listener: we can all listen and decide if we like something or not. In fact, a so-called skilled listener who spends hours listening to differences between bits of wire has turned listening to music in to a chore. It is never that with me.
And yes, this is the Naim forum and primarily about music (or it certainly used to be). Naim for the most part does us a great service at providing all the wherewithal we need to play music. Unfortunately in the streaming world some computer equipment is required, which Naim does not make. Linn is the same is this respect, Chord Electronics less so (you have to make all your own cable choices).
I’m fortunate that I worked in the computer industry for many years and so was able to get my cottage wired with a fit and forget network. It does all the things I require and is properly tested. No faffing with cables required and everything measures as it should.
Hifi obsessives love to argue over things like cables. It is often their hobby. Me, I’m definitely a music first person.
So if you like a system with a Naim streamer, valve amps etc., and you like Vodka then why worry. Just put on some great music (what is great music is again subjective) and enjoy. To me Curved Air’s Air Conditioning is great music and Sonja Kristina is one of the great vocalists (much better than one vocalist who gets a lot of coverage on this forum), but you are perfectly entitled to prefer something else.
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Yes Linn came up with this method. It is a method they use for listening tests, not the way for listening to music. I used it with my dealer for agreeing the ideal speaker position, we then put the speakers in the practical position and used Space Optimisation to reproduce the ideal sound. Once done, it’s done and from then on, I just enjoy my record collection.
However, the basic philosophy is if sounds better then it is better.
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Yes as you say measurement will get you so far.
Without them you will probably miss the mark all together, but they do not guarantee success. I bet your CB 110 measures very well.
IME kit that measures badly performs badly.