Cable burn in

Is there any evidence for this at all?

That was the reason for my more detailed response a couple of replies ago! Unlike cables, amps have electronic components like capacitors, resistors and semiconductors, all of which potentially can change in terms of electrical characteristics, including permanently.

Evidence? Isn’t that getting a bit sciencey?

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I suppose a time comes when we just have to agree to disagree. I will never convince any of you guys and you will not convince me of your view. I always approach things with an open mind and some of my views have come from places where there were no preconceived ideas. I have good hearing and I trust it. I feel I am aware when I am being subject to psychological influence vs something else. Over and out.
Also, you are all too smart for me to argue with anyway. :v:

My thoughts? They generally sound best when plugged in and played a while.

As for speaker cables, I’ve already made my observations clear on here on a number of occasions; NACA5 definitely improved markedly in the way it conveyed space and depth after a lot of running. But if anyone here wishes to know why that might be, there I honestly am stumped, and I’m guessing that this thread may not give me the answer either…

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Thanks for the reply, I agree completely.

This is i think a relevant part of the story. You also never hear people report that their amplifiers sound worse after 200 hours of running in, they always mention an improvement.

If there were any significant changes in sound character, it would statistically have to be a degradation about half of time. Changes in something as subjective as sound quality could not possibly be considered an improvement 100% of the time.

Not until it’s in active use in the device.

Much like a new car internal combustion engine. Brand new, unused, it takes time to wear in (literally, in this case).

Actually that’s not quite true insofar as many break-in stories involve it getting worse for a time too, i.e. it’s not a continuous improvement. I actually think I was experiencing this too (with all caveats applied). But yes, everyone says it’s better at the very end. (And when I had to borrow my dealer’s broken-in 252, I am pretty convinced it was better vs my new one)

…not really…I would have thought that the manufacturer actually markets products which sound better after burn in, as opposed to the converse.

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I have repeatedly said that I definitely believe that audio electronic components will change in the first hours or even weeks of operation.

I can see a definitive case in point where electrolytic capacitors change over time. Initially their capacitance value will change fairly rapidly as the ‘forming’ process stabilises. After this point the minor properties (such as DA, ESR and possibly self-inductance) will continue to show reducing changes over a longer time.

It is also likely that there will be impurity migration at the junctions of semiconductors under the effect of heat (increases mobility) and electric fields (increases applied force), causing some changes in the majority carrier, and probably greater changes in the minority carrier.

Both of these are active components (although in different ways) relying on interface effects for their functioning, hence are particularly subject to change. This is not true of cables.

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Please don’t try to hang on to discredited theories when you (by your own omission) don’t understand them or the context in which they are ‘supposed’ to operate.

The very term “Working out” implies trial and error and learning, this either requires an evolution like process (between generations) or intelligence (if in one occurrence of an item).

And also equally easily disproven.

See my post above and please refrain for ascribing views to me when you don’t know me.

Please stop giving impossible explanations about HOW things happen when you don’t understand those explanations. Say you hear the subjective effect and I won’t challenge that, if you hear it you hear it, I have absolutely no reason to doubt you on that. Hearing it doesn’t though explain HOW it occurs.

Explanation that a perceived effect cannot occur through a specific stated mechanism is a technical claim not a subjective one; therefore debunking that specific explanation is a technical issue and has no bearing on the subjective occurrence or otherwise of the effect.

I have never claimed that cable burn in is impossible. I have only stated that so far, all the proposed mechanisms don’t stand up to scrutiny. I’m still waiting for a valid explanation of the mechanism.
I will be delighted and fascinated to hear anyone provide such a valid explanation of the effect.

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I have!

Unfortunately the mechanical analogy doesn’t hold up for electrical ‘burn in’.

The mechanical process is easily understood and the results can be seen and photographed with a simple optical microscope, indeed they can often be seen by the naked eye, felt with a fingertip, heard in the running of the machine, measured in the increased efficiency of the machine, and seen in changes in the amount / type of debris that accumulated in the oil. These are all simple testable changes.

Unfortunately that’s not the case for electronic ‘burn in’, the changes are in minor, difficult to measure properties. Properties that can often only be measured in a component in isolation, not in a complete assembled system.

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Yes I see, thanks, a poor analogy.

I’ve learned a lot on this thread!

More complicated that it looks, isn’t it!
:grinning:

Here is another explanation of the cable burn in, by Galen Carol, from his site ( Galen Carol audio. com).
Curious how Mrs Xanthe will find that. And others too.

“ Cables: Most all cable manufacturers agree that break-in is a result of changes in the conductor and/or dielectric. According to one manufacturer: “The insulation (or dielectric) will absorb energy from the conductor when a current is flowing (i.e. when music is playing). This energy-absorption causes the dielectric’s molecules to re-arrange themselves from a random order into a uniform order. When the molecules have been rearranged, the dielectric will absorb less energy & consequently cause less distortion.”

Cardas has, for years, included a Cable Break-in Guide with their cables. In it they state: “All cables need a break-in and warm-up period. Better cables require longer break-in. With all cables, the more you play them and the less you move them, the better they will sound.” The unique geometry of Cardas cables require that “…the strands be of equal tension… Current flowing through the cable during break-in, and each warm-up period, will relax the structure of the strands.”

Another prominent cable designer believes that during the break-in process electrons are establishing new micro pathways through the conductor material and these changes in the conductor is the primary reason for the improvement realized through break-in. They believe that most of the signal travels across the surface of the conductor. Viewed under a microscope the surface that appears smooth to the naked eye is really a series of peaks and valleys. The irregular surface forces electrons along a circuitous path to their destination. When a cable is bent or twisted, new tears and fissures form, disrupting existing pathways and requiring new ones to be formed. This explanation lends credence to reports that cables need to be re-conditioned and being handled. I’ve seen this in a very real way.

Years ago, when break-in first became realized, we decided to complete the process before shipping our cables and advertised the service as a value-added benefit. It didn’t take before we started hearing back from customers who questioned whether we’d done what we promised since their cables indeed improved after a week or two of use. We believe that, at least in part, the act of coiling the cables for shipment and then uncoiling them after arrival, was the culprit.

While there is no hard data (that I am aware of) to prove to the engineers among you that break-in in exists, I’m sure 99.9% of audiophiles have heard the benefits of the process and believe strongly in its importance.”

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Indeed the Emperor was observed to be wearing beautiful clothing.

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…worth remembering that The Emperor’s New Clothes was a work of fiction?

Don’t understand, sorry