CD Ripper/Music Server Recommendations

Sure I (well a few of us) spent many hours with advanced debugging toolsets many years back… from the data of the rip absolutely no difference. And if you think about it make sense or we we would be losing or modifying data all over the place… and our modern world would fall apart, when you went to get your bank balance it would randomly adjusting up and down…. Also modern CD drive mechanisms will also adjust the read speed based on the amount of errors it is recovering
We shouldn’t confuse a rip with a stably timed bit stream feeding a DAC for example.

If you are hearing differences which I am sure you are, then it will almost certainly be as a consequence of an out of band function, rather than the data of the rip… assuming you have not got some DSP deliberately modifying the rip data.

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Just to add to all this.
I now much prefer streaming than playing ripped cd’s, since i got my vivaldi upsampler, PhoenixNet and omega cable. It has certainly pushed the streaming side massively, and now for some other strange reason my rips going through the phoenixnet into the upsampler just can’t match the streamer version of the same song.

It’s not a mouse, but a tiny noisy ghost, a kind of gremlin, that was trapped inside the rip.
Robin Milner identified the EGP ( encapsulated ghost phenomenon) in 1991.

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:grinning:

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Software engineering part II

I promised Orac I would say a few words from a software engineering perspective on the second aspect of the OPs question, media servers.

As a recap: software engineering is a process of matching desired outcomes, to expected outcomes and then to actual outcomes. And from a software engineers perspective we are living in a world of logic, trust and problem determination and we use evidence and probabilities to guide us in this process.

So in this our situation, the user requirement is as follows. As a lover of high fidelity music reproduction, I want to get the music encoded in a high resolution music file from a storage location that is anywhere in the world to the DAC I am using to replay music and feed the music into that DAC with as close to perfect timing as possible so that I can get the maximum pleasure and enjoyment from my music. :slightly_smiling_face: The acceptance criteria includes very high resolution files, maybe 192/24 or even higher if my DAC supports this. Some users might have acceptance criteria that they want to do this without needing any basic computer user experience.

Ok, so at first sight we have quite an engineering challenge. We have all heard of jitter and its timing effects on musical reproduction. If the media server alone, possibly sitting in a data centre in Germany say and not just in the room in which my hifi sits, has to feed the music data into the DAC by itself in real time with really high precision we would all be in big trouble. Think of all those network cables, switches, coper cables, fibre cables etc. the data has to travel over with no tolerance for delays or degradation of data. We call this realtime communication or in software engineering terms synchronous communication. When there is a consequence to the receiver of the communication being mistimed it is just very very hard to do from four feet let alone 2000 miles.

Fortunately we have a well understood and well trodden software engineering solution. We put a cpu and a buffer in the digital streamer right next to the DAC and split the problem into two stages. Stage one is between the hard drive and the cpu in the music streamer. Stage two is between the cpu in the music streamer and your speakers.

The second stage is realtime or synchronous communication still - feeding the DAC from the CPU in the streamer using the smallest path possible and with great timing. And then having the amplifier take that signal and use it to drive your loudspeakers so that the music reaches your ears. Thats entirely the job of the streamer, amplifier and loudspeaker designers to do and how well they do it explains why some audio components cost a few £100s and others cost upwards of £35-40k.

The first stage however has now been converted from a real time synchronous problem to what we in software engineering terms call an asynchronous problem. In other words we can set things up so that we no longer need to move the data with perfect real time precision. The good news is that whilst this is still challenging, it is also a well understood and solved software engineering problem.

So the software engineers use a variety of trusted software components like TCP. This is a way of getting data from computer a to computer b across a network reliably, which allows the majority of the internet and your home local area network to work really well. They add their own software engineering code to create a digital stream that chops the music file into chunks and send it to the cpu in the streamer. It uses the same checksum technology we were talking about earlier to validate that each data chunk sent from the media server matches the data chunk received by the cpu in the streamer.

The data is stored in a buffer in the streamer which is a small amount of memory which holds a few seconds of the music. You can hear this at work. Play some music and pull out the ethernet cable connected to your streamer (carefully :rofl::rofl::rofl:) The music will continue to play for a few seconds. If it stops immediately, talk to your hifi dealer about an upgrade pdq!!! :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

The practical upshot is that the data gets from the hard drive in the data centre in Germany to the cpu next to the DAC with no data loss. And assuming there is sufficient bandwidth to handle the stream there will be no degradation in the sound due to data loss, except for the music cutting out if the buffer ever empties.

There are lots of media servers that have been written to do this digital streaming job. One standard approach is to use upnp. A standard for media servers. There are good well coded examples such as spoon’s asset, twonky, bubble to name a few. Roon is another solution that uses their own protocol called RAAT to do the same job. There are also more expensive solutions available that bundle the server and storage solution into one, though they are not strictly necessary to get a bit accurate stream.

So earlier in this thread I made a controversial statement that we are all in big trouble if different media servers start sounding different. The reason why is that getting data from place a to place b in computer terms asynchronously is a difficult but solved problem.

So if there are observable differences between the sound of two media servers it is either a) a software defect in the media streamer or one of the components it uses or b) some other secondary impact on the streamer must be occurring.

On a) by all means test different media servers to death in terms of sound if you enjoy that. I am sure the developers of the servers would love to get extra end user testing results. Best to direct your observations to the developers concerned as Simon did with Naim as that is the fastest way to fix it.

On b) Simon and I and others were discussing the primary mechanisms by which that could happen earlier in the thread. There are three most likely to make a difference I think.

1 - The software running on the streamer (not the software running on the media server) when it is converted to machine code and is running, generates noise from the streamer cpu. That noise changes when there is a dramatic change in the type of instructions running on the cpu. The noise could, if it leaks into the dac, change the character of the sound fed to the speakers.

That explains the flac v wav differences some people (including me) on some streamers could hear years back. I struggle to imagine how, at a software engineering level perspective, two bit-identical files sent to the streamer using the exact same media server and configuration, and the exact same network path can sound different unless someone plugs in a hairdryer :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: Simon did however suggest one way there might be a possible secondary impact from the way the streamed code is encoded.

In software engineering terms we normally rely on asserting that the test data fed to the system has led to a predictable output and use that to validate that the software is working. I would welcome a problem determination orientated discussion on what other factors might make the outcome of that test invalid if we have a specific example in mind. I could learn so much. But perhaps not in this thread!

2 - The noise from the hardware device running the server cpu, disk drives, network card, network cable etc. might leak into the streamer and again change the character of the sound. In this case, as Simon mentioned, modern switches and networking components do quite a good job of reducing that noise.

3 - A corruption on the hard drive that houses your music data. Note in this scenario the type of disk used makes no difference. Again I can think of no situation where a WD gold drive sounds better than a WD RED drive. So make sure you back up your music folders. Because a hard drive crash or corruption will occur with very high probability eventually. Thats why I personally have a NAS, and two backup NAS with one offsite. But thats my choice and its not strictly necessary. Just take sensible precautions.

So what is my advice to the OP on media servers. Again I think it is really straightforward.

  1. Frankly, take for granted that the media server, if it has a good reputation, does a good job of moving the data from its storage location to your streamer in a bit perfect digital stream.
  2. Choose a media server based on its features and its known reliability.
  3. If you know how to install software onto a pc, mac or linux and configure it to point to your beautifully (accurately :grinning:) ripped files, then by all means do that. Examples would be roon, asset, bubble etc. If you are less sure on how to do this, by all means buy an all in the box solution.
  4. In my personal view, get the media server as far away from the hifi as possible assuming your media server is connected to the rest of your network and the internet when you listen.

My personal choices have been asset and now Roon. They run on an always on small hp desktop pro in my office which cost me a few hundred pounds refurbished. It also runs plex and provides me vpn access to my network. Asset was easy to install and it worked well. So was roon and I personally love the curation of content and the features to manage multiple versions of the same album seamlessly. And its tidal / qobuz integration. Some other Linn users swear by their new app. I tend to swear at their new app but then I am a luddite :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Keep enjoying the music. :+1:

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You were doing so well, and would have likely persuaded a few folk - until you let slip that you use a generic PC as your server.

Everyone ‘knows’ that these generate sh1t loads of ‘noise’ and can’t be as good as a dedicated audiophile server costing ££££££
:wink::wink::wink::wink::wink::wink:

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:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Hi @badger1,

Many thanks for the additional words, just processing them now. Understanding is now much improved. What with this and what others have added, not to mention bits n bobs from WWW I may just about be there for a simplistic understanding of cd ripping and playback. Just don’t ask me to write it down :joy: :joy:.

Hopefully your end section will be useful to the OP in helping them make a decision on how they wish to proceed. Me - I’m pretty much streaming from service provider now although I do have a largish (circa 1000) number of cd’s ripped (some time ago via dbpoweramp) not to mention a fair amount of Hi-Res and others purchased from various sites. These are all stored on my NAS which I can use as a source if internet/WWW connection ever fails.

Sad to say my hearing is not as good as it used to be, an age thing I suppose. So hopefully these problem artefacts and the like will not interrupt or get in the way of my enjoyment of my music.

Thanks again to you, and all contributors, for the info/contributions/opinions etc - back to listening mode now.

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Pleasure Orac. And I understand you will be appearing in gloriously restored and upgraded blueray shortly, if only in the last episode of the first restored series! I watched blakes seven when i was 10 or so and was obsessed by it :rofl::rofl::rofl:.

About 2 years later I got my first computer a sinclair zx81. With 1k of ram, I had to learn how to code in z80 machine code to make it do anything sensible aged 12. Good training for my career! I immediately related to Simon’s comment on noise from processors because it made a distinctive noise depending on which program was running! 3d monster maze sounded different to space invaders! Nowadays software engineers are so decoupled from infrastructure that it easy to struggle to understand how the world of software and infrastructure can interact with unpredictable results! Another reason why these threads sometimes end in disaster - software engineers are so specialist and decoupled from infrastructure that they don’t consider the potential impacts. And then probabilities get turned into certainty and lines are drawn and it all ends in tears :cry::cry::cry:

I only noticed the streaming services could go direct to the streaming device when my friend helped me setup the linn app for my demo last week. I wonder now what they are using to stream? And how they handle the security aspects of upnp if that is what they are doing. Maybe its not an issue but interesting to explore. My linn app on the ipad can now arrange that. I didn’t test if it sounded better or worse but I suspect you might know my hypothesis now :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Take care.

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I like it, paranormal hifi… we will be having reviews on which exorcists provide the best sound quality shortly… fantastic…

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Lets hope that alien isn’t lurking in the guts of the rip I made of Karl Bohm’s Magic Flute 15 years ago. I am listening to it now. Not listened to it for years so I hope its not being lying in wait and jump out at me at a dramatic moment! :rofl::rofl:

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Thanks for the kind words. Was not aware that I was being released in updated blu-ray, must keep an eye out for that. I did like the old Blake’s 7 show and quite liked the direct approach of the ships computer, even if it was maybe a little more sarcastic than I.

My intro to home computing was via BBC B, Elite was my preferred game in those days. By then I was well into a long career of maintaining complex computer controlled military equipment whilst wearing a nice mostly green uniform. Very interesting and with great job variety which towards the end involved very large IT systems, albeit they were delivered by a consortium of suppliers.

I’m still very much into updating myself on technologies that I may not know very much about - keeps the grey cells active. Delving into a bit of cryptography these days and not just the new stuff. Lot to be picked up from early WW2 cryptography such as Lorenz.

Good luck with your own career etc. Keep enjoying the music.

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Just for a bit of fun I downloaded the full dbpoweramp suite for my laptop - probably the third time I have paid Spoon for this! But never mind!

I dug out my wife’s 3 year old usb bluray player. Thats about as cheap as you can get.

The cd ripper program asked for an audio CD. I found one that had not made it to the loft. 10 seconds later it had calibrated my bluray drive.

It ripped all tracks on the cd in about a minute or so. Accurately. The (5) sign means that there are five different people who have the exact same checksums as me. That means the chances that the rip is not an accurate match for the original PCM file used to create the CD is one in quite a few billions or more.

At a software engineering level I would now not lose any sleep over how accurate than rip is. No other optical drive and computer is going to get a more accurate rip.

I will play with the perfect tunes sofware that was bundled with the cd ripper. It is currently doing its thing and scanning my entire library of 57490 audio tracks. Will report.

FYI That is how simple it is to get a rip that frankly in software engineering terms can not be bettered.

Now I need to copy that file to my NAS. I actually don’t trust my file system to do that well. So I have a simple file transfer utility loaded on my pc that uses both checksums and a full bit level verify when the file is transferred. In my case it is called terracopy. Done. Its now visible to roon and asset.

The only key thing to get right is to be structured in how you store the files on the hard drive. Mine are organised in genre, artist, album. If there multiple versions of the album I put the difference in brackets after the album. The dbpoweramp tagging is really good but I also have the free mp3tag at my disposal. Now roon has all it need to match my CD to its own databases and I am off to the races.

Geting ripping again after 5 or 6 years took me a full 15 minutes to sort out…

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This is not complicated or expensive enough for the average audiophile. I hope you have a really good power cable on your server.

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The fun thing is I could probably take the server over to my dad’s house and install it there. It is on a vpn mesh network I have. So it could probably appear as if its on my network and still stream perfectly to my linn ds :smile:

Many thanks for all your detailed posts, they are very informative and helpful and Im learning a lot as probably others are too.
Which ever way I go, I am going to have to buy new hardware, be it a one box (or two box) dedicated cd ripper/ music server or a personal computer, cd ripper, NAS etc, the former also being able to be better fitted into my household environment, than the latter which would be a big challenge, so my focus so far has been on Innuos, Melco and Aurender products.

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Pleasure

oh and here is accurate rip in action. Its a 2 disc CD. CD 2 has a track which didn’t rip accurately.

So I clicked that track again and re-ripped it in secure mode rather than burst mode. It ripped the track with more error correction. 30 seconds later it reported a correct rip.

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