CD Ripper/Music Server Recommendations

Its a combination of electrical and software engineering as so much is now :man_shrugging:
There is no need to drive a wedge between software, infrastructure and electrical engineering. We all respect each other’s fields too much to be honest.

Edit. And I am rather confused by the statement to be honest. We are actually trying to examine the effects of software engineering on electrical engineering via infrastructure engineering? The comment doesn’t really make any sense to me. Engineers seek explanations and evidence for observable phenomena because understanding them helps us to control things when we build things. Want to help?

Edit2. And if I was sensitive, it would frankly be a bit insulting to be told I didn’t have enough comprehension of the technical layers below software and be ignorant of the potential interactions that can and do take place. Fortunately, I’m not. And I’m not. :grinning::pray:

When you transmit a music file over the network, it can be in a variety of different forms. It can be a voltage in a wire, a radio wave in air, a light pulse in a glass fibre, a file stored in RAM as a series of charged and uncharged capacitors etc. etc. In order to exist in these different forms, the stream typically has to be converted from one form to another….from voltage to light, from voltage to radio waves, from radio waves to ethernet parcels, from ethernet parcels to a series of charged and uncharged capacitors on a chip. Etc. All those processes have certain physical characteristics….wavelength, intensity, power, time, voltage etc. All work within tightly defined specifications and all suffer from irregularities caused by noise of a multitude of different types and sources, depending on the physical state. For example, a crystal oscillator may be affected by HFI or vibration which interfere with its resonant frequency and cause minute variations in the timing of its output, resulting in jitter and possibly phase noise. A power supply may respond very quickly or very slowly to demands, depending on things like impedance, reserve power, regulation, quality of magnetics etc, resulting in clean or ragged edges to square waves. The supply may generate its target DC voltage but may also output noise coming from its own componentry, from its mains supply or from nearby sources of EMI. The noise spectrum from one PS may interact with that of another PS to give complex harmonics.
Every process on the network will provide a cleaner, more accurate, purer and more perfect output when its own input and components are optimised. The cleaner, purer and more carefully each step is performed, the cleaner and purer the final input into the DAC……each process on the network has a particular sound signature that impacts the final sound. The effect may be small or large but it’s always there.
A shortcoming early on in the network transmission will ripple through the entire network to impact the output. For example, routers based on the Puma chipset will almost always sound inferior to routers based on the Broadcom chipset. While that shortcoming can be compensated for in the balance of the network, it can never be removed and will always impact the final sound. Improvements later in the network may offset the effects of the router, but you’ll always hear an improvement when the router is upgraded, regardless of how much better the rest of the network makes the sound. Taking out anything, anywhere in the network that causes degradation to the purity and accuracy of the physical structure of the stream will always bring improvements. Whether its better cables, better power supplies, less EMI, less vibration, less mains contamination, better power supplies, less network traffic, less error correction, less latency, fewer CPU interrupts, whatever. Obviously some improvements have more impact than others and not all changes are improvements. Some improvements early on may be offset by major degradations later in the network, so changes that are clearly heard on system A may be almost completely masked on system B.

On to the question of Wi-fi. Essentially we are talking about converting a voltage to radio waves, then back to a voltage. This is essentially a noisy conversion and while it will certainly provide the system with galvanic isolation the degree of improvement will very much depend on the quality of the components employed and how well the Server and DAC are isolated from the RFI. I used Wi-fi in my system, but subject to a lot of improvements, The transmitting router was isolated from the rest of the network with its own dedicated 5GHz band, it was placed on a vibration isolated platform, it had a high-grade LPS
and a custom DC cable. On the receiving end, the Wi-Fi - Ethernet Bridge was provided with vibration isolation, its power supply was massively improved and its Ethernet output was passed through a cascade of switches, before being fed into my Server. Untreated, Wi-FI provided a small improvement over a directly wired Ethernet cable, likely due to the inherent galvanic isolation. The treated version was transformational.


The above photo shows the TPLink RE650 Wi-Fi-Ethernet bridge on wall mounted isolation. The second photo shows the literally cheap-as-chips RE650 power supply that was replaced by a Sean Jacobs Mini ARC6 DC4

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Agree with everything you are saying on the impacts that that signal chain in the layers below software can have on data packet loss. Its happening all the time - even as we speak and our words are being transmitted over great distance, data packets are being lost. Software has developed several tactics to try to manage this loss. The most ubiquitous are asynchronous communications techniques like tcp and many more as I am sure you already know. These techniques are what stops your bank balance degrading and changing when its on its way to your phone from the bank’s computers.

The digital music chain is a marriage of IT and electrical engineering in the long chain of events from a data file stored on a hard drive to the sound reaching our ears. The interaction of both worlds are complex. Suffice it to say, please don’t assume that the IT professionals you meet here don’t have that holistic perspective. You will likely have met others that are less experienced or less aware. But rarely will you meet them here (I hope). :pray:

To add - I will be testing wifi in a NGKDSM soon. It will be interesting to see how linn engineers handled the challenges you describe inside their new digital streamer design. It is a much bigger box than their earlier generation ds and I am hopeful that the noise is well managed. We will see.

You opened a different thread on Melco server. Your goal is to try it at home, at least what I read some days ago.
Then, why not borrow a Melco server and Melco D100? Make some rips and analyse them. But first see if the sound changes.
I guess you are not frightened to observe that the sound improved noticeably, upsetting all your certainty ?

Er thats the plan?

In the domestic world, you don’t need to daisy chain switches. The data will not differ.
You don’t need neither to implement high quality clock inside a switch. A 10 dollars one is enough.
But in the music streaming world, a lot have experienced that daisy chaining switches improve the sound. Do you know why ?
Then adding an expensive clock connected to the switch improves also very noticeably the sound quality. Do you also know why ?
As you are an IT guy working for industry or domestic applications, normally you have not experienced that. So I am curious.
I don’t think that noise cancellation is the only explanation.
A good clock or daisy chaining improves the timing too.

If not, a good battery power supply powering the switch and the router would be enough.

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But why the ?

Sorry frenchrooster you are confusing me totally. Did you actually read any of the discussions in the other thread? Lots of great discussions about techniques to decouple the digital streamer from network noise via multiple switches and different kinds of ethernet cable. I do in fact daisy chain my switches. 5 in fact. And have achieved significant sound improvements already through deployment of these techiques. You lost me I’m afraid.

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Because you confused me. I thought you already knew that was the plan.

Good to know that you experienced daisy chaining and enjoyed. I apparently didn’t read enough carefully.
So one question remains. How about a much better clock than those present in common consumer switches ?

Thats alright frenchrooster. And you do very well talking to us in English. Mon français est très mauvais anglais écolier français. Believe me we are better off communicating in English.

It’s actually the daisy chaining and switch decoupling that is behind our discussions about strategies for handling the need for computer servers and storage devices like NAS.

My belief has been that my pc server and nas sitting behind 4 daisy chained swiches in a different room plus dedicated electrical spurs has effectively decoupled the effect of all those components on my hifi. I intend to borrow a melco and test it out. If my theory is right, then the melco will make no difference to the sound when I install it in my office. If so I will pass that learning on. Not all are able to organise things like I have of course.

If it does improve the sound at that point, it’s simple. I will buy the melco and pass on that information to the community.

At the level I have reached I will take every sound improvement I can as they get progressively more expensive. However its important I understand what those changes are and how they cause the improvements. Hope that makes sense.

Enjoy the hifi!

PS on the clock you will have to explain how that helps in my context! Once I understand that, and if it has potential to improve things, I will. But perhaps lets have that discussion in the other thread! :slightly_smiling_face:

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it is beyond my paygrade to understand the fibre stuff but I tried a few fibre combinations that was said to work well and it always did something strange to the sound (like killing the soundstage). so you are really spot on there.

I then tried the “famous” modified cisco meraki and even tried daisy-chaining a variety of switches (to avoid multiplying the problem of a certain switch (probably an idiotic thought :-)). I then came to my senses and adjusted to my knowledge level and now run a simple netgear (GS108Tv3) with a quiet PS + the eno2 streaming system and its the best so far. I’ve left the network alone since then. :slight_smile:

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I did not do an extensive back to back test I am afraid. I already owned the Cisco 2960 8tc, which I bought used for $60 dollars on the web.
I then bought the SFP fiber transceiver for about the same and the fibre patch cable was maybe $15 dollars.
I can not elaborate on what specifically changed for better or worse, but I preferred the sound with fibre. No back to back blind tests took place.
I found it relatively cheap to try compared to the cost of the streamer, amp, speakers and power block and cables I use.
It is up to you whether or not you try it, but being in this hobby, I guarantee it will always be in the back of your mind if you don’t try…
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Its unfortunate you did not do an extensive back to back test as you now have all the equipment to do so, are you not curious to test it extensively to find out?
But if your happy with the fibre connection then fair enough.
Some professional reviewers preferred copper and some the fibre, it seemed to depend on how good the copper set up was and how good the fibre set up was which determined which sound they preferred, but I recall a few saying a low cost optical set up was not as good as a good copper set up, and advised you needed to get a very good optical converter with a good linear power supply feeding it for it to equal or better the copper set up.
My Lumin Dealer recommends the ADOT MC03 Kit which has a Plixer LPSU with it, but thats AUD 1575 so not cheap just to have a try as they wont loan me one on sale or return, so thats not a viable option to do a good comparison and find its no or not much difference, so I will just stick with my copper set up and not bother.
Streaming Tidal CD quality on my system is very very close to playing a CD on my CD Transport into the P1, so my copper network is pretty good anyway, so not too much incentive to want to try/ change anyway.

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I think it primarily will depend on the streamer or network DAC. That will be the primary determiner. Not many streamers or network DACs support fibre interfaces currently. … and therefore there is no great advantage in using fibre, as you will be substituting a switch port common mode noise for a media converter common mode noise… but that is not to say you might not prefer the noise profile of one over the other … like changing different switch types.

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This is exactly why we haven’t ever tried optical with the 2960 (previously used with 272) and SFP we have lying about.

All the fibre to ethernet converters we could find for NDX2 end seemed to have simple DC power jacks, so you’d be down the wormhole of the DC PSU costing much more than the device. And introducing another device/PSU which would seem to make the whole fibre run irrelevant really.

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indeed - and you would then need to inspect the consumer devices to see how they are actually earthed / grounded. If they float I wouldn’t touch them with a barge pole if I wanted to minimise electrical noise, as it would add its own noise - self defeating. There are better and cheaper ways of adding noise to modify a noise profile I would have thought.

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I suppose it would be fairly easy for me to swap back to regular Ethernet. The Cisco 2960 is the only switch I own, so nowhere near the EE8, or Phoenix.net that many here seem to praise. Like you though, I have no desire right now to start demoing high price switches and Linear power supplies.
Not sure what this means, but when I recently home demo’d the Chord ground Array gizmo, it did absolutely nothing to my ears, maybe fibre is doing what it is supposed to?

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Hi just to hopefully tidy up some confusion… regular Ethernet can use either fibre or CAT cables (twisted pair). For Ethernet they are identical. Fibre or twisted pair are simply different physical layer choices to support Ethernet. Both are completely regular.
You will usually use fibre for distances longer than 100 metres or above 10 Gbps… other than that it is purely discretionary and usually unnecessary unless dealing with legacy devices. SFP and SFP+ transceivers are designed to work with twisted pair CAT cables as well as different fibre connection types.

In consumer hifi, some use fibre to remove common mode noise flowing from poorly earthed or not earthed at all network devices. It’s certainly possible, but personally I think it’s better to use quality earthed network devices… unless you have an Ethernet segment to a streamer of more than 100 metres, which you would need to either daisy chain with CAT cables and repeaters or use fibre.
Just bear in mind fibre is not always great for audio as it is susceptible to microphonics, which effectively phase modulates the reconstructed serialisation clock ( thereby removing some of the stability benefit introduced in switches using stable serialisation clocks which some audiophile switches focus on providing).
Reconstructed phase modulated serialisation clocks can couple as out of band noise in lesser streamers or network DACs.
If you are suffering from strong common mode noise issues, the other option is to consider Wi-Fi which offers the same common mode benefits as fibre, and most streamers support Wi-Fi but not fibre. Unfortunately some older streamer Wi-Fi implementations have appeared rather poor with seemingly poor decoupling. (In my opinion)

The other thing to consider, especially when looking at certain simplified marketing material, is that the sample data as binary 1 and 0 or True and Falses is not directly sent over the fibre or modern CAT cable… simplistically a series of analogue symbols are sent… these analogue symbols map to little chunks of digital data… and then reconstructed and basic integrity checked and then passed up the Ethernet layer and then split into header and payload… each successive layers takes the lower layer payload and splits into header and payload… finally you will find our sample data in the application payload at the top of the stack and processing. The processing, which occurs across the layers, undertakes integrity, confidentiality and assurance checks as required which is why data passes in both directions

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