Changing to Digital and Audiophile Network Switch

Update:

As some of the fellow forum members are aware, that as part of these changes, I am taking the opportunity to upgrade the Naim PowerLine Lites to the full fat PowerLines.

I’ve now sourced four of these as pre-owned. Two are already in place, one in the SuperCap to the NAC282 and one in the FlatCap to the SNAXO242. The remaining two have arrived and are now in the two NAP250s.

As pre-owned, I am hoping that they have been run / burn in.

WOW, is all I can say. I thought I knew my favourite albums fairly well. The depth of detail and the fullness of sound is very noticeable. As such, been re-playing my favourite tracks to hear the difference. Subtle improvements as well, such as the percussion is now more defined; you can hear the brushes scratching across the surface of the drums and the reverberation on the Kalimba.

I’m going to let the system settle down and fully bed itself in, whilst continuing to enjoy the music.

5 Likes

Hi there, you got most of the classics in but you forgot ‘even my wife/husband/partner could hear the difference’!

2 Likes

That’s kind of you, whatever you’re implying.

You’re happy, I’m happy, now you can trot on.

1 Like

S/h powerlines are great vfm upgrades. Congrats!

3 Likes

As long as you are happy, that is most important (for you).
Btw, I think you won’t be able to fit the Naim powerlines into the recessed socket of your Linn streamer?

1 Like

I know, I’m on Plan B with the streamer. Currently trying a Mark Grant mains cable.

I’m keeping PowerLines to the Naim electronics, apart from the two NAPSCs which have PowerLine Lites.

The Linn streamer will be the only odd one out.

1 Like

It was only a gentle rib, sorry for the offence.

1 Like

That’s usually with them being in another room to.

2 Likes

No problems and thanks for the apology.

Hi DG, have you considered an external ps to your EE switch ? You would have the same improvement as going from a cheap switch to yours.

1 Like

Wow, I have just tripped over this thread. I never thought that my 20 years experience in Optical communications would be relevant on a Naim forum. I very much concur with Simon’s comments.

  1. I would not contemplate single mode in domestic setting, the 9 micron fibre core means that cleanliness is everything. This still applies to multimode. but nowhere near as critical. I remember seeing a demonstration many years ago showing the impact on BER ( Bit Error Rate) between cleaning a connector using a shirt sleeve and a professional cleaning kit.
  2. Single mode optics are generally specified for longer distances and using the wrong transceiver will saturate the receiver causing issues
  3. TBH I have never come across transceivers that are suitable for both single and multi-mode cable. The word compromise comes to mind if they are out there. I worked in Fibre Channel, which is for storage data rather than general network traffic, which has MUCH tighter requirements on signal quality
  4. Not all transceivers are equal, we had brands that we loved and hated in industry. Some were excellent and some much less so.
2 Likes

I concur, and also in line with numerous comments I’ve made further up the thread. Commercial and professional opinion shouldn’t be confused with criticism or condemnation, it can often be perceived as such, namely you work in field X, provide your thoughts, then have those that have first hand experience of trying it within a very limited and targeted setting shouting down those inputs and treating them as a negative.
It is interesting to see the experiments in this space but as was the case with both copper Ethernet and Wi-Fi solutions, they were typically repurposed industrial or enterprise implementations of the technology ( a focus of many of the Standards then and now) with an audiophile leaning, focussing mainly on noise, removing it as much as possible, in the pursuit of letting the audio data go about its journey from A to B with as little interruption as was humanly possible, usually at enormous expense.
As you yourself highlight, optics require a different approach and careful handling and appropriate choices to be made that suit the environment and use case.
If someone decides to try out one particular option and finds something they like and are willing to accept the cost and complexity that’s their gain (and financial loss potentially), quantifying that from a technology perspective is challenging, it’ll usually come down to a case of, I tried it, it sounds amazing, I’ve made a good choice, often regardless of cost.
There should be a happy medium that any system can benefit from that is based on a sensible choice of components and ones that aren’t expensive whilst still providing tangible benefits.

4 Likes

Yes. I’ve got IFI Power2 power supplies on both the EE8 and Netgear switches. Read some good reviews about doing this for the EE8.

Ok, i had them too on the Netgear and tp link switches before. It added something indeed. But a good quality linear ps gave really much more.
Maybe one day you will be tempted to try. ( Paul Hynes SR4, Uptone JS2, or the Silent Angels one ). Hdplex 300W or Uptone JS2 can power two items.

1 Like

Hi Mr M,
A very sensible post.

When I started with digital audio I literally started from scratch. My networking experience goes back 30 years, but not at all in an audio-related environment. My audiophile experience goes back 50 years, but without any audio-networking experience.

So when it came to implementing audio streaming for the first time I was reasonably happy in putting together a robust network and had sufficient theory to know that I needed a robust network of sufficient bandwidth and integrity to deliver bit-perfect files. So that’s what I constructed using the typical home consumer networking gear.
My background is in highly complex analytical systems so I followed what ive learned this past 40 years and found myself a few experts in the combined field of audio networking who i could ask for advice.
With several large electronics stores in my region I was in the happy position where I could try and evaluate a variety of different network strategies including, pure ethernet, internet over power, wi-fi, mesh networks, multiple extenders etc.
To my surprise, there was some significant variability in the audio results these different technologies delivered. All were good, but some were much better than others in terms of the audio results. Further experimentation revealed that in my house wi-fi sounded best.
My initial results were very good….excellent in fact. Then I started experiments with things like adding switches, adding USB re-timers, substituting cheap SMPSs with LPSs etc. and what I found was that in terms of SQ, the network was able to deliver a better bang for my buck than the equivalent (same money) hi-fi component. Stated differently, I got a lot more for my money upgrading my network than I did from upgrading my hi-fi
Of course this activity brings you into alignment with the experienced audio-network specialists, and into opposition with many of the network specialists who share my initial belief that a bit perfect stream is all that’s needed

2 Likes

Appreciate your thoughts and insight, it’s good to both challenge your own preconceptions and to be challenged by others to act as the basis of a more informed perspective.

Experimentation plays a key part in that, especially for an area like audio reproduction. The question of, “what can I add, remove or change to improve on my listening enjoyment” and in the case of data networking, it’s fair to say that where consumers are concerned they typically end up in a “best effort” bucket whilst specific commercial verticals will have refinements defined and standardised that further optimise the performance, serviceability and operational life of the equipment installed and relied upon, usually with high availability and multiple levels of failover and redundancy.

The underlying standards and specific physical layers tend to focus on improvements in capacity, reduced installation costs, extended reach and other protocol and application enhancements to reduce latency and provide more robust error handling.

There is a recognition now of the needs of consumers to have more resiliency, more control and better reliability in the networking equipment that is focused at those markets, a need to have a wired backbone that can scale to 10Gb, a Wi-Fi infrastructure that can adapt to the environment and extend service without loss of throughput and mechanisms to ensure devices can both negotiate and share resources at a device agnostic level, using protocols like Matter as one example.

There are also initiatives to enable more intelligence at the network edge using edge compute and machine learning ideally in the residential gateway such that a home network can adapt to the needs of the clients both autonomously and with end user input to provide further refinements.

Today it remains mostly best effort and requires an end user to adapt themselves to their needs, either by using more capable enterprise/industrial solutions or making other changes to mitigate the inherent limitations of consumer grade equipment.

The standards don’t really accommodate and factor in the needs of a service category like high end audio, most of the focus there being on higher resolution files which in itself is just a mitigation of limitations elsewhere in the service delivery pipeline to an extent.

I still think there’s a case for a specific service class defined around Single Pair Ethernet, a compromise between existing copper Ethernet implementations and the more experimental optical based solutions.
I’m exploring the potential for what could be refined as part of my regular interactions with Wi-Fi Alliance and Broadband Forum to that extent, partly out of my own curiosity to experiment and to help promote improvements at a Standards level that all may benefit from at some point downstream.

3 Likes

Don’t agree with that. High quality audio as used in the AV industry is pretty well established and still innovates. I would be surprised if a good proportion of the high end recordings you enjoy don’t go through current Ethernet protocols in their production and delivery processes.
So yes the standards absolutely support high quality audio and can be optimised for either or latency, synchronisation, queue prioritisation etc.
Now I agree home networks are typically light years away from this and are typically very simple/trivial and straightforward implementations with no real network optimisation. Even so called consumer audiophile switches that I am aware of don’t support high quality audio over Ethernet optimisations… but good results are clearly obtained with simple home networks using either twisted pair of fibre.

Now for example DSCP and MME are fairly simple and straightforward methods/standards of optimising data such as audio across a LAN / wifi… and I am not aware of one high end consumer Hi-Fi manufacturer that supports these.

1 Like

My reference was specifically to consumer implementations, in broadcast and production there are a multitude of implementations you’d never see in someones home.

2 Likes

Indeed, exactly my point. We have the standards and methods… it seems however consumer Hi-Fi manufacturers as far as I am aware avoid these methods… perhaps for home Hi-Fi the effort of implementing these considerations is not justified for home audio with the improvements potentially obtainable.

Seemingly consumer Hi-Fi manufacturer’s effort instead focuses on non ethernet network related or out of band considerations like coupled common mode noise (twisted pair), and coupled link phase noise (twisted pair and fibre) as well as internal digital component / module decoupling… like Naim’s use of LVDS

2 Likes

There’s certainly lots that could be done taking a bottom up approach within the Standards definition process that could allow enablement of improvements and benefits that any system could take advantage of.
I’ve been arguing this point for a while certainly as part of the feature mapping for Wi-Fi 7 and the interworking with access technologies like OpenStack. There’s some interesting work in the prpl foundation as well on orchestration.
I’m working on a project for Downloadable Application Containers (DAC) that could also be of interest to create specific service mappings based on application and client requirements. This is with Deutsche Telekom and with contributions from Liberty Global and Comcast/Sky so you could see it implimented for Sky and Virgin consumers using the UK as a geographical point of reference.
You could enable a Naim DAC (the app kind that is) that interworked with OpenStack and Matter and that can create specific resource mappings and virtual interfaces dynamically and based on the needs of a specific client.

2 Likes