Dear Record Labels

Absolutely.

Using it to describe the condition of a music format is outrageous. :blush:

as i recall CDs near indestructibility, transportability and duplicability had a bit more to do with vinyl losing sales than did the lack poly inners

1 Like

As I noted earlier every format sows the seeds of its own destruction.

As it happens most people seem to have forgotten that at the point vinyl went kaput it was being outsold by cassette not CD.

Downloads and streaming also have clear flaws. I’m sure some will claim that the lack of a standard for metadata is one :slight_smile: but the bigger issue is the lack of album art and booklets. Lots of people think they like ownership but I suspect what they really like is getting the same package as everyone else.

It should be obvious that the current vinyl run is a blip. Environmentally it’s unsustainable. Sound wise it’s simply nowhere near as clear cut as is frequently claimed and as it’s mostly shifting chart selling major artists of several eras there’s no roots or growth. There’s only so much Led Zep, Floyd et al you can resell.

I’m more concerned with the 2/3 of new discs that are dished, wildly off centre, or have unforgivable pressing defects like shallow groove, where the lathe barely made a cut into the mould and the resulting pressings look semi blank and sound rubbish.

I can live with supplying my own sleeves.

Then I go to into a record store that specialises in only really top notch new pressings. And it’s all bloody classical and jazz - there’s nothing for me to buy at all.

2 Likes

Not shocking according to @Fatcat :slight_smile:

Talking to friends who have vinyl or who have returned to vinyl I do get the impression that 2/3 is about right. Not a sustainable position in any sense.

I buy quite a lot of new vinyl still, as many of you know, mostly pressed by RTI, QRP, RI, Optimal, Pallas and GZ, and at worst my reject rate is around 1 in 10, but usually less. Recently it has been very good with no need for any returns for quite some time. For all that, I think that an anti-static lined inner sleeve should be a given from everybody.

Yes, because vast server farms used by Spotify, Apple, Amazon, Google/YouTube et al run on goodwill, marshmallows, glitter dust and unicorn farts. As vinyl is no longer a mass medium (and I would imagine that much less gets thrown away these days), its environmental impact is much less than than that of streaming.

8 Likes

I expect they will all be thrown away, however far in time that may be. AFAIK vinyl (PVC) is not recycled, and what many people don’t appreciate is that where waste goes for incineration vinyl needs to be segregated from general waste and other plastics, and incinerated a very high temperature under controlled conditions. If incinerated at lower temperatures as with general waste it releases carinogenic dioxins into the atmosphere, fallout to the ground leading to uptake by plants and animals and so into the human food chain. This applies of course to the masses of vinyl sold over the past 70 years as well as new, but doesn’t apply to polycarbonate (CDs) or polystyrene (CD cases).

Meanwhile I guess that downloaded music files played from one’s own store have far less impact globally than the server farms for online streaming.

1 Like

Indeed as will everything including you, it’s not really news is it?

Recycling is a bit of a con too as my local ‘recycling’ plant now declines engine oil if you have brought too much. I wonder if I was disposing of gold there would be similar restrictions?

I’m sure the OP regrets posting now :confused::roll_eyes:

2 Likes

A couple of years out of date but in November 2021 5 hours of streaming was the carbon equivalent of 1 plastic CD case; 17 hours of streaming equalled 1 vinyl record. However, I think this specific data turned out to have failed to take into account transport costs; the cost of an actual CD and multiole other complexities. Last I read 1 vinyl record was the equivalent of 4 hours of streaming so nothing to be complacent about.

So if somebody buys a vinyl album and listens to it for only 5 hours, that’s better than streaming the same album for 5 hours.

Not convinced you can even remotely measure or get a mean value because “streaming” covers so many vastly different things. Streaming what? From where?

@Richard.Dane I see what you’re saying but generally when people buy music, they don’t buy for a label, they buy the music they like and have no control over the label. To do otherwise would be like deciding you only watch movies from Paramount. I get that some special releases have secondary license agreements for production. But in general, the same artists doesn’t release their new content on several labels so that you can take your pick.

The best I’ve come up with is vinyl release in Japan. They tend to either be very stringent about quality control or stringent about rejecting stuff before selling it on. All of my horrible discs were imports from the US.

FZ, I think you have misunderstood why I listed the pressing plants. I buy the music I like - where it’s pressed is incidental, but I was just giving an indication of where most of the LPs I buy are pressed, particularly as one of those, Optimal, had terrible issues with non-fill, which are hopefully now fixed.

1 Like

It’s ever evolving and being refined I think. The same process as is happening on other issues of environmental concern.

As one example, the assertion thst massive server farms must inevitably be less friendly than vinyl distribuion starts to crumble when you look at how many have been powered by solar power. Its a complex area and what we believe to be true today may soon not be the case.

Nope, I am pleased I posted.

I have been watching the debate with interest, very enjoyable.

:beer: & :popcorn:

:slightly_smiling_face:

5 Likes

What’s your source for this? Or is it your mate’s son’s dog’s cousin’s best friend again?

The important thing you have neglected to factor into your argument is that the costs (environmental and other) of manufacturing an LP or a CD are one-off. The energy costs on streaming are recurring. Every time a piece of music or a film/TV show is streamed, it consumes energy and increases its environmental impact.

This piece from the dreaded WEF is interesting, even if it is older than the piece you cite.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/02/streaming-music-isn-t-as-green-as-you-might-think-here-s-why/

5 Likes

I wasn’t suggesting it is! My post was merely balancing @TheKevster’s, and meant nothing more.

1 Like

Recycled vinyl will probably end life on earth as we know it and I’m part of it. God please forgive me.

2 Likes

Steve Watson and Duncan Oswald have been writing about this specific environmental conundrum since 2011. I think their most public attempt was in the Ecologiost or some such about 6 years ago. Their more recent efforts are slightly more underground and arguably under-resourced but make for an interesting read. They are remarkably well balanced and accessible writers and have yet to conclude decisively one way or the other to the best of my knowledge.

Every year the conclusion is broadly the same i.e. that you are comparing apples to oranges and that any kind of simplistic answer one way or the other is generally down to not understanding just how complex this is and selecting your own biases to suit. Touché…

So sure, 6 years ago you could argue that server farms generate a cost every time you stream. 6 years later and the number of organisations using server farms powered by solar power at 50% or less of the cost makes that a much more difficult case to make. They’re very good too on the relative costs of streamers, turntables, amps, cables and the difficulties of comparing digital distribution to distribution by HGV. I especially like their point that there is a false equivalence in suggesting that a stream is “manufactured” more than once but a CD or album only the once. Simply not true. Costs of production end with the recording and packaging. After that everything else is distribution and the cost of playing. The comparison is how 10 plays of an album over the net compares to the cost of 10 plays of an album on CD or vinyl at home. That is not a simple calculation.

What we can say though is that the vinyl lobby will persist with the line that streaming is definitely more costly and persist in arguing that that the environmental cost of vinyl is really low when it simply isn’t.

I suspect the vinyl lobby will simply continue to buy records while they are available, play them and enjoy the sound quality.

6 Likes