Decision time. CD5 XS 2 vs CDX2

Hi-Fi Corner
21

Roger,

apologies if I ‘steal’ your post, but I take advantage of it to remind the OP that all three pieces of gear quoted - CD5XS, CDX2 and nDac - use the same DAC chip, the Burr Brown PCM 1704K. So what you spend for an nDac is essentially a costly implementation of the same basic module.
If I may add my unrequested opinion, I’d let the nDac alone and would go for a FlatCapXS, powering the other two XS boxes.
As for the CDX2, I have had four or five, covering the whole of the revisions from 2003 to late 2107 built, and all XPSs, non-DR and DR and the one made by a known third party. I too think that if it’s music you’re after, a full XS system should be more than adequate.

Best wishes and Happy Easter
Max

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22

I went from 5XS to CDX2. Much better hi fi still looking for my music.

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23

Hi Paul;

No need indeed to have the 5XS sent all over especially if your dealer gives you a warranty. I had not realized you were living in Melbourne.
Have your dealer check the alignment of the drawer. It is an indicator of the overall status. If it is not perfectly aligned, the distributor should fix it, check the cable ribbon and the optic block.

Chag -

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24

A big thank you to everyone, once again. I still have the CDX2 as dark horse in the background. Though Forum Members have saved our family a lot of money. Where I was once looking at $14,000 dollars AUD for a CDX2 and optional Power Supply. Plus the optional power supply for the Nait XS Mk2 Amplifier.

I am not very sure of the Naim situation here in Australia at the moment. I am under the understanding they are here to stay. Though a few products have been discontinued.

In the past I have learnt to fully upgrade my Apple iMacs when I purchase them when the RAM and HDDs are available. This philosophy has carried over to other areas of my life. Therefore I will make a purchase of the CD5 XS and the Flatcap XS power Supply whilst they are still available on my next visit to Melbourne.

Thank you one and all for your valued opinions and help.

Warm regards,

Paul and Shelley.

25

Hi Paul

The DAC I had in mind was the Naim Audio DAC as displayed in your post. I have no experience of using a DAC V1. I found that adding the DAC to the CD5XS made a transformative change to the sound, whereas the effect of adding the FlatCap XS to the CD5XS was subtle at best although just about worthwhile in VFM terms. Incidentally, the DAC comes in the same casework as the XS series boxes and therefore makes a good visual match for the CD5XS and Nait XS, unlike the DAC-V1. It’s also upgradeable with power supplies if you want to boost its performance in the future. In the UK, used examples are readily available at a good price but I don’t know enough about Australian prices or your local second-hand market to know if the advertised DAC is good value at AUD4490. Perhaps they’d be open to negotiating a discount or at least throwing in a good BNC-BNC digital cable.

Isoblue is a modular wooden racking system for hifi components with a good reputation for sound quality and to my eyes (but not to all) it looks good as well. (Try googling it if you want to see what it looks like and for more info). At some point, for best SQ you’ll probably want to get the hifi out of your bendy IKEA cabinet and onto a proper rack. I don’t know if Isoblue is available locally to you, but if it is it may be worth considering at some point.

Roger

26

G’day Roger,

  1. Would you know if the DAC that I posted the link too has the same DAC as that in the CD5 XS?

  2. Would you know which optional power supply would go with this DAC please?

Kind regards,

Paul.

27

Hi Max

I can only report on my personal experience and I have only ever had one of each box. I found that using my CD5XS as a digital transport into the nDAC gave a substantial upgrade in SQ on the bare CD5XS whereas the improvement from adding a FlatCap was sufficiently modest that I hesitated some time before eventually buying it, with my ears and sound preferences of course. I did not personally make the comparison with the CDX2 but the dealer who did and reported extensively on the old forum was someone with whom I had dealt myself and whose ears I trusted.

Roger

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28

To Dac or not to DAC? Roger is twisting my arm. I will talk with my dealer and see what he has to say about the longevity of the DAC staying around for awhile. I have the dollars. Though will it improve my selection of music as posted far above at the beginning of the topic. The burst on this DAC informs that it has the same DAC as the 555 and jitter free. Tempting.

Why is playing music so complicated these days?

Warm regards,

Paul.

30

Hi Paul, Quite right the CD5X, 122x etc are indeed from an earlier range. And we could say that they are themselves descendants of Naim’s olive Slimline series of the mid 1990s. But it all decent gear, it’s all Naim😀

You ask about a subwoofer. I have no experience of them. The Naim mate who recommended the CD5X set to me (I took the principle and applied it to the later XS range) also recommended Naim Allae speakers. These are about 89dB sensitivity. They really make the most of my 50W amp. Again, they are not very vogue-ish. They seem tolerant of less than perfect sources. Yet there are people on the forum using them in top flight sets eg with NAP300 etc. Basically, they just make music fun and I’m very glad I took his advice.

I don’t know about in Aus but they go for very little on the used market here in the UK.

Imo no need to sweat about to DAC or not at this stage. More important to decide whether or not CD5XS and Nait XS2 with your speakers is a coherent and pleasurable set for you.

Best, C.

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31

Hi Paul

To get details of what’s going on “under the hood” with the CD player and DAC you will need to ask one of the more electronically-oriented contributors to this forum. I judge hifi using my ears and my music and as I posted above I heard a substantial upgrade in SQ, so the external DAC must be doing something more than the CD player. The power supplies you can use with the DAC are: XPS and 555. After running the DAC bare for a couple of years I bought an ex-demo XPS and a year later got it updated to DR spec, but by that time my amp had changed to a SuperNait/HiCap. (It’s now on my 272.) The 555 gets rave reviews but is very pricey (and the XPS is hardly cheap). I think the XP5 XS will also work, but this is now discontinued (like the DAC) and experience reported on the forum has been decidedly mixed. If I were you I would run the system without a power supply for a while before thinking about PSs.

Incidentally, if my experience is helping, that is great, but in no way am I trying to ‘twist your arm’. It’s your money, your musical preferences and your room, so ultimately you should let your ears decide and I hope you enjoy the process.

Best wishes

Roger

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32

Not so. It’s the “costly implementation” that matters. An nDac will improve the sound of the CD5XS more than a Flatcap will. There’s an excellent piece on the CDX2/CD5XS - with or without DAC - on the old forum which was extremely interesting, written by Norman Uhes. I can’t find the link, although I downloaded the full text at the time, and still have it.

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33

Here’s the link on the old forum.
https://forums.naimaudio.com/topic.php?oid=1566878607655514&coid=159503632588889

34

Thanks, but I’ve read it at the time and have expressed my opinion very extensively about dealers who join the forum and discuss at length products they sell. I am in no way more interested now in what Norman wrote than I was then, and I also think that you didn’t really read my post because the reply you took the pain to digit doesn’t contradict what I’ve said. You replied to yourself, not to me.
Regards

35

You’ll have to explain how I could reply to myself when this was my first post on the topic…

36

Thank you SamClaus, Weltfaul and others. This could be a simple purchase or a very complicated one.

SC, thank you for the link. It was a very interesting read which read two or three times trying to understand the different components and jargon. All OK now.

I am still as confused as ever and will ring my dealer or dealers today after 9am when they open. I do not have money burning a hole in my pocket. Though I do wish to start off on the right foot with the source.

As Welfaul has pointed out. All three systems have the same DAC internally. The apparent advantages of the DAC would be the removal of jitter which I have yet to hear or distinguish and the added value of playing other formats and power accessories.

I do wish for the best source, though am mindful of my wallet at the same time. I will talk to my dealer and see if I do purchase a CD5 XS and Flatcap. If at a later date I purchase a DAC will the Flatcap be compatible with the DAC.

Thank you very much, one and all. Everybody has given me much to think about and ponder. In closing. The nearest dealer is two hours drive away each way. A four hour return trip. Being the end of Easter today and living in a coastal holiday town I will not be venturing on the roads today. It will be a long phone call.

Warm regards,

Paul.

37

When you are on the phone you may want to ask if your dealer has the different configurations in stock and if you could hear an in-store demonstration to determine if you hear/distinguish a preference of one configuration over other configuration before you make the purchase. If nothing else it may give you insight to a future upgrade path.

Once again, good luck with decision.

38

If you later get the Dac, the Flatcap will bring no benefit to the CD5XS as it only powers the analogue stages. It would, of course, still benefit your Nait.

39

Continuing the SPL aside: I assume the 88dB is average, and A-weighted (the most common unit). In your calc I’m not sure if you’ve allowed for the distance from the speakers you sit, nor for the stereo pair (assuming you listen in stereo)? Forgive me if I’m stating what you already know:

At 84dB/W sensitivity, 1W gives 84dB 1m from a single speaker. (nominally, as it is affected by any differences in room reflection or absorption compared to the situation when that 84 was measured). Twice that distance (I.e 2m) would be 6dB less (78dB). Twice that (4m) would be 6dB less again, etc.

Assuming a listening distance of 2m, then, with 78 dB for 1W from one speaker, add 3dB for the effect of the second speaker (with both channels the same output level) =81dB. 88dB would require 5W. In this example the XS2’s 70W rating would mean 5x that power available, about 11.4dB, giving a maximum continuous SPL of 99.5dB

The figures at, say, 3m distance would be would be 3.5 dB less, so 1W both channels about 77.5dB and a maximum continuous SPL of 96dB

Other than that, peak power is also of significance. I don’t know for certain what the XS2 can manage, but with the Naim power amps for which I have seen peak power ratings, they are typically 5x the RMS rating. If that holds true for the XS2 that would mean a maximum peak SPL of about 7.4 dB more, so 107dB at 2m or 103.5dB at 3m.

In my case I listen typically in the low to mid 80s average SPL (as measured by Decibel X and dB Volume apps on iPhone, dB(A) uncalibrated). When I play at really spirited levels, high 80s or occasionally a touch higher, when, depending on the music, peaks can hit the ~115dB maximum that my amps can achieve at the listening position with my speakers. (Out of respect for my ears I limit the time I play at that level to just the occasional album of two.)

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40

Dear I.B.,

Thank you for your post, taking the time to wrk out the maths and write it so it can be easily understood.

The dB meter I was using was on my iPhone at my listening position. I was just curious as I had given the amp a nudge higher and was curious to what level I was experiencing. Therefore I would believe that the seated listening position would take into account:

  1. Room Corner reflections as speakers are placed 24" from each side and rear wall. A possible 6 dB gain.
  2. As the measurement was taken from the listening position, this would also take into account of the 3dB gain of the second speaker and the 6dB loss from seating position being two metres from the speakers. Which intruth it would be closer to 3 metres. I will let you work out the math.

So the 88 dB SPL would have to take into account at least 6dB loss, plus 3dB gain plus a possible another 6db gain leaving an overall net gain 3dB.Which would mean my speakers are operating at 85 dB SPL or there about. I am too tired to even work out the calculations though we are only talking about 1 dB SPL. The amp is spec’d at 100 watts into four ohms. I had no idea it had a possible head room of 5 times. I was working in a safety margin of 14 dB for rock and 19.9 dB for Classical.

There are several online calculators around and I used this one instead of getting the pencil and pad out.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

I will leave it here for now. I am too tired to carry on. Though will get back on topic.

Warm regards,

Paul.

41

What to do? After reading up on the DAC. It sounds like a very interesting upgrade path for the money. That is until you take in the optional power supplies for the DAC. $$$$$$$$$

I think, right or wrong. I will go for the CD5 XS and the Flatcap power supply.

There is another possibility. My old CD-85 which has the timber work removed from its left and right hand panels. To allow it to fit in the IKEA TV Stand. I sealed all the gaps that this caused by 4 inch wide sticky tape or something along those lines of measurement. This CD player does have an optical output which may be compatible with na optical input on the DAC. Saving the cost of purchasing a new CD player all together.

A possible Plan B.

Though I think I will go with Plan A and purchase the CD5 XS, Flatcap and excellent interconnects and be happy with that. Maybe powerlines as well.

Down the track this still will allow the upgrade of the impressive DAC and possible power supply upgrade for the DAC if I feel so inclined and my dear wife allows.

Thank you to all again. Dear I.B., if I left my last post to you a little short. I mean no ill will. All this number crunching which I used to love in previous jobs has left me exhausted as I battle with PTSD and other mental health issues. All I am after now is the music, therapy.

I would be interested in peoples opinions in an excellent pair of closed headphones. Though that maybe another post.

Warm regards to all.

Paul from Oz.