End of my tether

@mikehughescq. Okay let me have another go.

I started out my Naim journey with exactly the same configuration of electronics as the OP. On Quadraspire, standard issue power leads and cables and once we sorted the speaker connections it sounded great. Speakers were Dyn 1.8s. True after a year I changed the 202 for a 282 (just opened the door) but whilst we maniacs like to install radial spurs, get powerlines and hilines etc out the box Naim will make great music. So I think this:

The speakers may just not synergise with Naim but as Mike has said the system worked okay a while ago I’m not sure. Did the speakers come from a Naim dealer? But could an alternative be tried?

Next a simple wiring fix. Are the speakers wired in phase? If not everything will be wonky for want of a more technical term!

Next, where is the Sky Box wired in? I’m no expert but am I write in thinking if on the AV socket there is an issue with gain? Have you tried unplugging it?

Mains? Others have covered this.

My money is on the speakers or possibly TV configuration.

Best regards,

Lindsay

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Hi Mike. I’ve been reading this, remembering your previous travails, and wondered whether it was wise to chime in. But hey. Reflecting on everything that’s been written: you said that the problems started after getting your speakers, and yet the problem isn’t your speakers. You have a problem worthy of raising here, yet you don’t feel able or willing to handle suggestions. I wonder what you really do want. You either get things sorted out, with your dealer or maybe another helpful forum member, or you let the system sit there unused, or you sell it all, or some of it, and get something else. The first step in finding the solution is sorting out what’s in your head and identifying what will make you happy. Fiddling with mains, with wires, with fuses and heaven knows what else clearly isn’t what you want. So, sit down and work out what you do want. I really, really hope that’s possible. I’ve been through all sorts of crap and music has helped me through, so I know its power. Good luck.

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Absolutely right. My system takes a few hours to set up and sounds great because its simple. Maybe because I’m so knowledgeable about how to set up a system and I am Ace performong the dance ofthe seven Rimmers. I did want to keep it a secret, but the catchphrase is Smoke a Kipper, Skipper, I’ll Be Back for Breakfast.

Mike, on the good old forum, there was an excellent poster called The Swami who found that the obsessive tweaking got in the way of enjoying the music. In the end he ditched the lot and bought a simple system and the enjoyment came flooding back.

Products like the Linn Series 3 or Naim’s Nova can make life a lot simpler and the music becomes paramount.

Like you I have no desire to spend hours doing problem diagnostics and trying this and then that and then … I like things that just work. We pay enough for them so that is the least you should be able to expect.

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hmmm… so, quite a few years of enjoyable listening (although frustrated for a while by a duff NAP200 (new ? or second hand ?) and then a speaker cable gets kicked and its downhill since then. Quite a bummer !

With so many subsequent setbacks, there could be a multitude of problems including ageing equipment, poor connections, a deterioration in the local grid supply. In other words, virtually impossible to identify and rectify without a considerable amount of time and expense.

Probably easiest is to trade the whole lot in to your Naim dealer and buy the best new kit within your budget. With recent advances within the Naim portfolio, the new kit might well sound better than the old should have done and might satisfy your requirements without further frustration.

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Lindsay - your comment around the sky box and its connection to the 202 made me wonder about whether this is having an effect. Normally issues where AV system connect to Hi-Fi systems via an analogue path can lead to ground loops - most noticeably hum problems. In this case there may be a more subtle effect where earth leakage current from the AV kit may be finding a way via the 202 signal ground to mains earth (through the CDX2/XPS where the usual single signal ground to mains earth connection is made). In this case i’d suggest Mike disconnects any AV kit from the 202 for now and see if that makes any improvement.

As others have noted, Mike i hope you get it sorted and get your music back.

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@anon32455950. I believe Naim’s recommendation against mains conditioning is outdated. Modern HiEnd units do not restrict current Flow and Really help with noise pollution on the Mains, and lower the noise floor, blacker blacks cleaner details , more dimensionality See if you can borrow a good one from a dealer and listen for yourself.

Keep in mind 20 years ago we didn’t have near as much AC noise pollution, cell phones computers etc. Also PLC’s have gotten way better than those old current limiting ones…I remember back in the day Mark Levinson and Krell both said No to PLC’s, now not an issue.

Personally I think it would be really great if Naim did a bunch of listening and trials and developed their own, maybe in conjunction with say IsoTek… That would solve the problem for all the Naimster’s and add $$ to the coffers.

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Hi Rick, afaik and I can’t speak for naim of course, but in my country the local import agent doesn’t recommend using them. I can see if one lives in a large apartment type situation benefits could be had.
naim use to say how a power filter can change the in house sound. Plus if naim recommend them would they make one to use on there systems?
Just sayin. Cheers

Please see my edit :slight_smile: How about Naim could be a bit more progressive and listen and if not build their own units, which would of course be the best sounding and not just Naim owners could buy and use them.

I feel for you because it is awful to have music taken away, with insult added to injury by the money spent seemingly wasted. I am very hesitant to offer suggestions because it is working in the dark, but clearly something somewhere is wrong, whether it be the mains, or a single component, or a combination of components, or a bad connection - and as it has worked to your satisfaction it is not down to fundamental non-compatability, nor is it the room (assuming there has been no fundamental change to the room content or layout).

So: the simplest approach, minimising any fiddling, though still a bit involved, may be to

  1. disconnect every wire, move every box, then reassemble, first with the minimum of components, and test. If OK keep adding more, which at some point might identify a cause. If not stop at that point as there is something wrong.
  2. If the basic system is fault, have someone - dealer, friend or forum-member - bring or lend a set of equivalent separates known to work, (brand irrelevant), or take said basic system to them, then swap components in turn trying each permutation, until the complete system is changed.
  3. if that is in your house and doesn’t fix the problem take to their place and repeat, or vice versa returning to yours if in their place and it does work

Good luck with it.

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@mikehughescq. I think you should have a couple of libations and consider what makes sense for you. Lots of folks get tired of the BS and just go simple, get off the merry go round, for a break. Nothing wrong with a Devialet or a Naim all in one, and well matched speakers. The Kiss principal is tried and true.

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But a system once set up and working should be stable and remain that way with no need for fiddling or tweaking, provided that there is no tweaking or fiddling. And people who like a certain level of sound quality, or system sound, may not be happy with something lesser - though if a system fails that might be the only solution without spending a lot of money.

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Pretty much sums where I’m at sir so thank you. I guess I’ve hit a kind of blockage. It sounds awful but right now I just can’t face it. I should emphasise there’s nothing else terrible going on in the background here. Work is great. I’m healthy. Been a grandparent for 9 months. 14 year old thriving at school. All is good. There’s just this one thing. It is, as you surmise, a big thing as I’m definitely one of those people (as I’m sure many of us are) who cannot imagine life without playing or listening to music.

So yeah, right now, having offloaded and read many kind words in consequence, I’m at a total impasse. Can’t face working my way through it logically. Can’t face my lovely dealer who has largely had little from me but issues.

Brilliantly tonight, to add insult to injury, the power went down in our area for 5 minutes, which will no doubt encourage the power conspiracists amongst you.

As regards some of the things you’ve variously raised.

The TV sound, off the Sky box, is connected to Aux 2 rather than AV. Think it was once on Aux 1 in error but there was no detectable difference. I just like having it on the end input as it’s easier to locate when you have a sight impairment, which to be honest is another reason I simply don’t want to get involved in the many suggestions as to how to systematically solve this.

The system is powered mostly via a Musicline Powerigel bar the 200, which has pretty much always had it’s own Powerline. Yes, I have tried it on every other box. Always preferred it on the 200.

Whilst my Zu speakers came direct from Zu the impetus came from repeated demos at a Naim dealer. Whilst some Zu speakers most definitely work best with low powered valve amps that isn’t true across the board. Many work just as well with solid state e.g. the Omen Defs and Omen. Indeed the latter are designed to specifically do that. Mine are most definitely designed for valve but so were Druids and I’ve heard multiple demos where they were stunning with Naim. Mine have also spent months being amazingly dynamic and alive.

I spent 3 years auditioning speakers and thus have heard most of the suggestions being offered. None of them felt like any great leap from the Epos.

Everything in the system was purchased new. All connections have been plugged and unplugged for cleaning and connection purposes periodically.

Has the room changed? New, lower sofas in February. Located in the same positions as the previous ones. Whole family thought it the biggest upgrade we’d had in years. Opened the sound up even more.

Yes, the CDX2 is 17 years young and so the end could be nigh at any point but it’s been an absolute trojan. Not one issue ever. I’m not going to make this a Naim bashing thing. Far from it. If I didn’t love the products I’d never have gone on the journey.

Have I considered streaming? Yes, but ideally I’d rather not. I’d rather Naim still produced a player of the quality of the CDX2. I’ve heard various streaming options but the NDX2 is the first where, although it’s a different sound to the CDX2, it has the PRaT and much else besides. Sadly the money put aside for that was quickly diverted to new sofas and a major bathroom repair which regrettably failed; caused further issues and requires further repair and redecoration.

Does that cover it?

Two things leap out for me.

1 - the issue around the speakers and impedance. Could it be that over time these speakers with this amplification eventually creates an issue? I don’t have the expertise to answer that or the will/funds to change speakers so any change would be on the Naim side of things.

2 - the earth leakage question. Would that affect mids?

Anyways, to bed methinks.

@mikehughescq – i’m sorry to hear about the troubles with your system. to follow on another post, given your speakers and your desire to hear more mids/bass, i think a valve amp may be the right solution. Line Magnetic gear is quite good and you could probably swap your existing pre/amp at little or no cost.

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Strange as it may sound given the speakers I’ve never heard a valve amp that can do what Naim do and I’ll take some convincing that farting about with valves is the direction of travel from this mess :slight_smile:

Just a suggestion but it might be worth just getting someone else to listen to your system and see what their ears make of it. This could be your dealer? A trusted friend or local forum contact? Sometimes ones ears or sense of sound perception can play tricks. Ear wax even!

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Thanks. There’s a bit of tinnitus but then there has been for 23 years. The trusted second opinion ears belong to Mrs. H. and a couple of her go to tracks. There’s no doubt the mids have gone. There’s no warmth to the sound. The body isn’t there. You can hear defined bass notes as they drift in and out (very dependent on genre obviously) but the element of the bass which are really mids has gone. It’s like a big not sure cheap version of a cheap transistor radio.

Something totally out in left field here (maybe not), myself being a rambunctious 14 year old at one time.When my parents used to go out, to work , or wherever away from home, I saw that as my opportunity to play my dads stereo, sometimes rather loud. Any chance your kids were having some fun, maybe blew something, and kept it to themselves? I am sure we have all been there.

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Went on some forums like audiogon about Zu speakers. The majority use valve amps with these speakers. It’s probably a mismatch with Naim.

He’s out before us and in after us. He streams via his own Muso QB abd has always been excellent around the hi-fi. Not a chance.

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Are they ideal? Maybe not? Why then have they worked so perfectly well in the recent past?