End of my tether

I have not understood with your post beginning this thread that the same system was working very well before. So forget my post Mike.

I’m guessing you’ve checked speaker cables? Sure sounds like out of phase.

Just to be clear did the problems start with the new Zu speakers, or when the speaker cable got pulled out of the speaker?

I’m sure the last thing you want/need is more advice, and I’m certainly no expert, but would it be possible to borrow a pair of speakers that are fairly engaging and more mainstream. At least this would seem to make a fairly easy determination as to whether the speakers or the electronics are the cause of the poor sq. It’s not a complete determination, but it might give some guidance.

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The only time I gradually lost music on my system.
It was a detachment from the center of a Kef B200 on a Linn Sara.
I had no consistency of the medium and a stocking overflowing intermittently.
I understand the frustration felt, good Luck :four_leaf_clover:

Yes sometimes it’s just better to take it as it is and move on. With products which don’t work and need often repairs you are done with it at some time. And the only good option is to get something which is perhaps objectively not better, but works.
That’s how my girlfriend moved from an Audi to a BMW. Both great cars, but she lost trust in Audi after some incidents with a car…

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They do listen and are always open minded. When I worked at the factory I remember we had a number of highly regarded mains conditioners in for evaluation, including one in particular that was considered a “game changer” and had been making waves in the US. They all impaired performance in one way or another and to differing degrees. I recall one particular unit only had to be plugged in to a mains socket in the demo room to just make everything sound completely flat - it didn’t even have any kit plugged into it!

I discussed the issue of mains on a number of occasions over lunch with Roy. He theorised that it was possible to make something that would work well and wouldn’t impair what Naim see as important areas of performance. The only issue was that it would need to be very low impedance and that would require something of a very large size - indeed, the bigger the better (a substation in the garden would be ideal) - so somewhat impractical. But he would be the first to get very excited about any regular conditioning product that he felt really worked well without impacting critical areas of performance, so always open-minded.

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Thanks for the info. Interesting that both AudioQuest and Shunyata make low impedance a very important parameter of their products. I still think Naim could develop a PLC that would clean up mains noise and not degrade the Naim-ness of their products.

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I added an Isotek Sirius and it most defiantly lowered the noise floor and brought everything into a better focus, so I think things have moved on.

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But if I understand correctly, the speakers worked satisfyingly in that system and room, which rules the speakers out unless something in them has failed. And with a single driver covering bass through to all but the top treble octave, it is hard to picture a fault causing loss of upper bass/lower mid (the area seemingly most affected) with the remainder unaffected. Having said that, it would be hard to accurately assess the subjective performance of the lower bass and upper mid/treble compared to performance before the problem, so it might not necessarily be the case that they are completely unaffected. But a simultaneous fault with two speakers seems unlikely, unless they had been played at excessively high power.

Similarly things like reversal of polarity of connectors causing the speakers to be out of phase are not relevant considerations if the system was fine, then suddenly went ‘off’ without any changes to the system. But if there had been any change, such is disconnection and reconnection of a cable, even accidentally through tripping or while cleaning or whatever, then that could be a very real possibility.

Regardless, the OP at the end of his tether clearly doesn’t want the hassle and time commitment needed to identify/rectify the cause, and if the alternative of getting someone else to do it (friend/dealer/forum member) is not acceptable or achievable for whatever reason, then maybe moving on is indeed the only option left, sad though that is.

I like the idea of its defiance of mains problems!

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It does sound like the speakers may be out of phase, as Lindsay suggested. Easy enough to swap one and check. I hope you sort it out.

Best

David

That sounds like a good suggestion, particularly with the mention of kicking the speaker leads that I think I remember from earlier on.

Sorry to hear about your troubles, maybe it is time to look around at other set ups .I changed last year from all Naim as I was sick of lots of black
boxes, cables that could supply a power station seemingly, and cable dressing etc etc, the whole thing.
I sold everything, and went to active speakers ( ATC 40,s, driven by an Auralic Vega G2, huge box reduction and huge cable reduction etc.
Now very happy, even though I had and was/still love Naim.
There is great Hifi out there, without a Naim !!

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From the Zu web site.
“You should have a 1/4” [6mm] or so gap between the bottom of the loudspeaker and the floor—1/4” is a good place to start, changing the gap height changes the tuning. The gap and the finger ports in the bottom of the cabinet are part of the ZuGriewe box loading technology. They are not ports as used in a bass-reflex design (Helmholtz resonators in all their forms) but the finger ports do need to see the acoustic space of the room. Blocking them turns the Soul Superfly into a “sealed” design.”

Could the adjustment of the speaker loading have been disturbed?

To be clear, such is the ridiculousness of this that the only thing which has changed in years is the speaker cable being kicked pre Christmas. Nothing disconnected in consequence. Speaker height is spot on and if anything’s ever been out of phase then it was magically in phase until recent weeks despite no cables having been changed.

I also appreciate @Innocent_Bystander thoughtful exposition on why it’s unlikely to be a speaker issue given that they are full range.

So what’s the plan Mike ?

There appear to be no solutions to solve the problem for you.

What’s on your mind ?

Similar to my thoughts above.

A half-decent dealer should be capable of a 50 mile eachway trip to take existing equipment out and demonstrate a small range of sensible replacements.

I would add, that the description of the NAP200 problems raises considerable concerns. It was new. It didn’t work. It never really worked. Based on what Mike wrote, I am somewhat surprised that Naim and their dealer haven’t been more accommodating, despite the pssage of time… Big disappointment to my my mind.

I had maintained long time ago that on top of their standard warranty NAIM should provide free psychological care to alleviate the mental stress of owning and optimizing their expensive gear.

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That’s partly why I’m moving away from Naim I was never really entirely satisfied and generally too much faffing about to get things right.

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I had the same system than the OP with nSats/nSub instead of Zu for the speakers. System was installed by the dealer on an Isoblue rack and didn’t move for about 12 years. Never came “off song” and only started tinkering with it when I noticed that people started to stream rather than play CDs.

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