End of my tether

Mike - I would have thought your system, given the components you have, will certainly be lively and have plenty of PRaT but could also be rather relentless on some material - especially with the exuberant CDX2 up front - The ZU speakers are also rather truthful of the recording, not adding the warmth that some other speakers add.

You mention the change of furnishings which is interesting. If you’ve changed furnishings which have changed the acoustic environment and made it more lively then again the system may be less forgiving than before.

I have never heard ZU speakers but I understand warmth is not their virtue. Having previously owned the CDX2/202/200 combo I can confirm that for all the dynamism and entertainment again warmth is not a feature although adding an XPS2 does improve resolution and give a more analogue feel. I therefore conclude that your electronics and speakers just lack synergy which may be exacerbated by the (critical) speaker/room interface.

Sorry.

Lindsay

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Yes, long ago and always A5.

Ok Mike, here’s my studied opinion. I spent some time reading up on the Zu’s just to be sure. Your speakers which are about 10 years old, have a MK2 upgrade all new drivers $799.00 but of course out of stock. The Zu speakers are super efficient 99db 1watt@1meter thats really efficient. Zu speakers are a favorite of the SET, and other low power Triodes, tube crowd due to their efficiency. What I find peculiar is this On and Off SQ problem; some times it On sometimes it goes Off. I can honestly say in 45+ years of audiophile -ness I’ve never had that problem. Gear works or it’s broken. If there’s a short it’s usually fairly obvious.

That said I’d try a couple of other simple things are the drivers All snugged down? take a whatever tool and check, don’t worry about exact torque, just make sure they are all similarly tight, not Gorilla tight, just tight.

Are you using any Mains Conditioning/ Filtering? My best guess is that there’s things on the AC Mains that causes your system to be sonically On then Off… I honestly couldn’t imagine not using a good PLC. Naim doesn’t like them but I believe that’s wrong and based on old thinking that PLC’s will limit current. And 30 years ago they may have been right. But with modern units I believe they are wrong. We have so much more crap on the Mains compared to Years ago a PLC is almost mandatory. Shunyata, PS Audio, Audience, EVO3, Synergistic Research, AudioQuest, Furutech. Lots of really good ones to choose from, that do not limit current. And yes they do change the sound. Typically reducing noise and hash on the AC Mains leading to much quieter background increased Blackness.

And lastly I also think Naim may not be the best choice for the Zu’s… If you are were going to keep the Zu’s and you’re not going to use tubes ( which would be the best , but would make you a bit batty) then The best choice IMHO would be Pass Labs. I’d recommend the INT- 60. A lot less fussing and impeccable sound. The INT-60’s first 30 watts are pure class A then it switches to A/B but it’s all about current into a load. Fast, transparent, warm-ish, natural…Lots of great reviews, and bullet proof reliable.

I’m going to bow out now. But I think the current road you’re on is just going to keep getting you pis**d off . I only have 45 years of experience, selling, setting stuff up, buying , trading, customer service, doing Shows,CES etc… I believe having all these boxes is just too much for you. Get a great a single box like the Pass you will be a Happy Boy!

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I agree with you. These speakers are absolutely not a good match for Naim. I would sold them and buy second hand Proac, Pmc, Sl2…

Hmm. Interesting. In the 9 years I’ve had the speakers in this room the one word no-one has used is lively. Warm yes but lively? Nope. Goes to show that reviews and forum views on a product are never the full picture.

I think the key point being missed is that it HAS worked consistently on album after album for years on end. Now it’s fine on TV but varies from album to album on CD. I don’t see how that could possibly be speakers or “synergy”. Also, this is music I know really well. I know how it ought to sound on this system.

Appreciate similar comments from Lindsay and Opus but they all miss the “but it did work for years on end” aspect of this and the fundamental discrepancy between TV and CD sound.

Opus, I’ve a Musicline Powerigel but again that’s distribution rather than conditioning and it’s also always been there.

I’m not sure I posted it on this (now very long) thread but yes the drivers are solidly where they should be. My torque drivers checked that out.

As for the variations in the electrics we did look at that much further up the thread and they weren’t that worthy of comment. Moreover I’ve spent some time this week switching rapidly between TV and CD. I can spend 5 or 10 minutes doing this using recordings on both and get negligible bass on CD then loads on TV. Switch CDs and get loads of bass. Absolutely able to replicate the issue.

My further thoughts - IF you can repeat the issue using the same CD it is how the CD is recorded. You are now hearing the CD as recorded. If you have a good CD doing all you want immediately try a bad one. If it is bad then try the good one. If it is good it is not the system. You are now hearing what is on the CD.

Mike. I wish you the best. I can only think it’s the CD player. But I haven’t had one in years. Every CD I buy gets ripped to NAS and listened to on a streaming device. I’ve used Sonos, Aurender, Devialet, Bluesound, and Auralic. I will admit I am very fickle. Something doesn’t work, doesn’t sound good or is problematic it’s Gone! Life’s to short to sail an ugly boat!

Mike, I owned a system similar to yours many moons ago (CDX/XPS/102/HC/180). Although it was capable of moments of brilliance (like you have experienced), it is also limited in resolution and depth, especially in the bass department and it also has a natural tendency to err on the bright side. Please don’t take this the wrong way but your system is not really capable of filling the void that you really desire. Any level of tinkering could be considered superfluous within your setup: positioning of your components on the rack will have hardly any audible discernment. You could also play around with cable dressing until the cows come home but in all truth and honesty it doesn’t make much difference. I suspect that the tug of war over the past 8 years has developed into a love/hate relationship where some recordings have the capacity to satiate on the odd occasion when the stars are in alignment but at other times will leave you yearning for more. It’s pointless flogging a dead horse: either accept the limitations of your system or sell everything and move on. My choice would be to go up one rung of the Naim ladder but perhaps it’s out of your budget. Please do not misconstrue what I have written: I have no malice towards you, this is from my experience of once owning a system similar to yours.

If I’ve owned the cd for 25 years and know it inside out then surely I know what it has sounded like on a system I’ve had in this form since 2011?

Not really getting these sorts of comments at all to be honest. I’m not offended by them but they seem to start from some sort of weird premise that there’s a level that my system will never be capable of when the reality is that it’s been capable of it for many years.

If I know an album inside out and it’s sounded great on this system for many of the years I’ve known it then how can it possibly that what I’m hearing now is

  • just the quality of the cd, or,
  • a system that can’t achieve that quality?

Mike,

Most of us are simply guessing what might have been changed in your listening room (eg new sofas), what you might have done to your system (eg re-routed cables), or which bit of kit might have gone wrong (and not yet been repaired).

We can’t really do much more to help than simply guess. I guess ,

Cheers, Don

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I think people are sincerely trying to help but resolving an intermittent issue that has been going on for 8 years is no small feat.

My experience (having had quality systems for over years) is that the same CD or LP played on the same system in the same room will sound good most of the time, wonderful in special magic moments and unfortunately awful from time to time. My theory is that the quality of power I get from the utility company varies all the time, although not always in a way that is easy to quantify… or that my own disposition is the culprit.

With time I’ve learned to live with the phenomenon, accepting things as they are.

Your comment in the opening message leads me to think that overall, your system has been on average unsatisfying for a long time. Logic would dictate that something fundamental needs to be changed, and that mere tweaking won’t do.

In any event I sincerely hope you’ll find the magic bullet and will be happy with your system again.

Claude

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Mike,

There’s one thing on which we all on this forum would agree, and that is that synergy between components from source through to speaker room interface is just about the most important factor in configuring a hi-fi system. Your electronics all match. The CDX2 is somewhat excitable but when paired with a XPS it is more analogue, compared with the 282 etc the 202 is more limited in soundstage and bass but they all work very well together. I’m sorry to return to the speakers but, and this may have been asked further back in the thread, have you tried a brand with a history of working well with Naim components?

Regards,

Lindsay

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Appreciate that your system may have been great in the past but by your own admission it is not doing it for you now.
Probably changes to the room (furniture) underpin this? Have you thought of trying a 282? It has more bass and warmth than the 202…

CDX2, XPS2, 202, 200, HC and NAPSC were one of Naim’s recommended set ups. Originally had Epps ES11s which started with other components and built into this. This system exposed their slightly rolled off top end so I upgrade after a 3 year audition process. In the last 9 years 6-7 have been flawless. Could have lived with or forever.

1 year can be written off to faulty HC, 200 blown by poor wiring by dealer, recap needed for the XPS2. Not the speakers then.

This time round the 202 needed a recap. Everything from connections to cables has been tested. So… it’s absolutely not “synergy”. Not after 7 great years in which we just sat back and flew through music.

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Mike,
I know that everyone that’s contributed to this thread wants to see your system perform to your satisfaction. That said there are so many things that could be causing your problems I don’t know if we can solve your issues. I think it has to be a hands on fix.

Mike, You are sending out mixed messages. In the beginning you wrote:

“The past 8 years have been a constant battle against the system rather than enjoyment of the system.”

And now you’re saying:

“Not after 7 great years in which we just sat back and flew through music.”

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Mike. I hear what you are saying. But you have changed your system. Your pre-amp has many new components. Just saying if one cd sounds good and one doesn’t it might be because you can now hear the difference through your new system.

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Fair enough Mike - You know your system the best.

I’d start again with the system and build up step by step allowing the system to settle in each configuration

CDX2 > 202/200 > Zu - how does it sound ?

CDX2 > 202/200/NAPSC > Zu - how does it sound ?

CDX2 > 202/200/NAPSC/HICAP > Zu - how does it sound ?

CDX2/XPS > 202/200/NAPSC/HICAP > Zu - how does it sound ?

Apologies if this has been covered before …

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