English Electric 8Switch

I dunno. I think @litemotiv has a valid point. Conversely, I have experimented with a few of these Ethernet port ‘boxes’ and have been on record as rejecting them as doing anything for my system until this one. How does one explain those differences on either side of the argument? One could suppose that the others were empty boxes. :wink:

:+1: Arguably, IF we assume for purposes of forming a hypotheses that ERs and EEs are equivalent to regular switches, then we can logically reduce all switches to empty boxes.

So IMO, it was a valid thought experiment in response to a statement that willfully ignored the established fact that subjective bias is a major problem in hifi evaluation, and that we have to deal with it some way or another.

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But I care on the reason of my post, sorry to say.
But finally why have you kept the EE 8 switch. If if does really nothing apart being a subjective bias, and empty box only to take money of stupid persons, why not sell it?

It was just a hypothetical, but thank you for answering!

Generally speaking, if there is something in a box that changes the sound, it would be visible/measurable in the soundwaves coming out of the DAC. As @jsawyer09 mentions, if there is no difference between the soundwaves with or without the box, then it’s basically empty (or it just passes through the source identically).

If a box like the EE8 sounds better to listeners but doesn’t appear to change the soundwaves, then that is very interesting ofcourse and could indicate that the wrong things are measured. But either way it would be good to know why a certain box ‘works’ and others don’t, so that we can use that knowledge and apply it in broader terms. For instance to help us find a way to determine which boxes have a particular effect and why, without having to buy/try them all.

If we can find ways to keep the ‘magic’ out of the equation as much as possible and rely on measurable data to determine if a box does something, then that can arguably only benefit the community at large.

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Posted recently above, I kept it so far because it was not a good time for proper evaluation when I put it in, with the system being so new and all. And I finally wanted to listen to music and not faff around. So I thought I’d leave it for six months or so, and when I have the time and inclination I’ll try to evaluate whether may positive initial impression has any basis in reality.

There was no real downside to it, the EE was peanuts in the context of the system’s cost, and at worst it does nothing.

I don’t think I understand that part. Anyways, IMHO it is not good for the forum to label somebody a troll just for questioning things with arguments that are always thoughtful and posts that are generally always friendly, instead of falling in line with aggressive subjectivism.

This is a well sorted statement.

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It takes 5 minutes to evaluate. Connect a cheap switch at the place of the EE, listen to 3 tracks, 30 seconds per track, and then connect the EE, and do the same.
I have done that with Cisco 2960 vs Netgear gs 105 and the improvement was clear and immediate. Same for the ER vs Cisco. As the ER was not run in, I left it running 24 h before comparing, without listening to music.
Then compared ER and Cisco and the difference was really obvious.
But if you struggle to hear differences, better perhaps sell it, or just keep it for aesthetics in the rack.

It’s not that easy the way my switch, cables, and streamer are situated, it would take more time that I currently neither can easily spare nor want to spend for this. And when I am done with recabling, I guarantee that I am not in a comparable state of mind anymore, but sweating and annoyed, so this would not be a valid experiment.

And as for the selling, I simply don’t really care about whether the 300 or so euros that I’d get for selling the EE are in my account now, or in 6 months, or never. At the present time, 30 minutes spent for reading/relaxing are more important to me - and I can stay in the state of mind that the EE is either better or the same as the TP-Link, so no worries.

So you prefer bashing the product instead of taking a short time to evaluate it and really see or not if it’s a snake oil?
However I prefer your position at least, vs some you have never tried a single audiophile switch but participate on all network tweaks just to troll them.

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I would invite you to quote a post from me where I bashed the product.

I am really sorry that you see thoughtful questioning as trolling

The trolling is not concerning you, sorry to have missed clarity in my post.
I have just a global impression that you have not a lot of consideration for all the audiophile ethernet cables or switches. The term ridiculous for describing the audioquest diamond is an example.
But If I have a wrong impression, sorry for that.

No, I know it was not directed at me. In my opinion litemotive’s contributions are a good thing and I found the troll label unnecessary and unfair, that’s why I said something. What value would threads have where everyone keeps reassuring each other that their subjective impressions are valid?

Yes, I do have a lot of consideration, it’s a fascinating topic. But I was around to see the angst about CDs when they were new, and since then have been seeing the same repeatedly in waves. And frankly much of the things that were said about CDs in the eighties/nineties was incorrect, and saying that it was, or questioning magic CD markers, got you labeled a troll in some venues just as well. (But now I see posts in the forum speaking about how great it is to handle actual CDs instead of lifeless streaming - the exact same argument that vinyl lovers used vs. CDs back then).

And it’s the same every time a new tech falls under the spotlight. On the other hand, some doubts do turn out correct under closer examination, against initial beliefs/assumptions, and it leads to improvements. So I am trying to keep a position between the religion and the simplified skepticism, which I believe should be obvious if you actually read the frequent posts you have apparently seen from me on this matter.

As for the Diamond, the context of my post was the question of a missing replacement model for the Vodka, and my choice of “ridiculous” was more about the price, making it not a straight replacement. However, it is correct that I’d prefer if someone asking for 1500 euros for an ethernet cable made at least a token effort of explaining why. The blurb on the AQ website is unscientific twaddle.

Unfortunately, as much as we all want to believe it, “but it sounds better to me” is not actually sufficient, because the same is said for magic wood pyramids for speakers and magic stones to put on units, with the exact same conviction.

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Why all these speculative discussions don’t arise on Superlumina or Chord cables. People share their findings and no one is saying that it should not sound better vs a standard cable, or question indefinitely the lack of measurements of these audiophile cables…
People can invest 5k on a Chord music or 5 k in Superlumina speakers cables, no one will criticise their choice, but Ethernet switch or cable, it’s no worth throwing money in that. And why? Because you just don’t know and don’t understand why it should work better.

My EE8 sounds better. I think because it probably doesn’t introduce as much noise as my previous switches did, which reduces any masking of the sound quality. Either way, it sounds better, is smaller and more esthetic, which are the 3 important criteria for me.

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Apparently it’s not enough for some people :laughing:

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It would be sad if they didn’t, but they do occasionally. For instance, there are regular references to test setups like that one about the hifi show where most people voted for the cheapest speaker wire because it presented in an impressive packaging.

And the challenges of valid test setups are the same for cables and switches. They are far too rarely performed in the world of hifi, but they are really difficult to do and so that is also understandable. The amateur efforts of “I picked ten out of ten in what I believed was a properly blinded setup” are honorable efforts, but would not be taken seriously in any professional field, for good reason. (My girlfriend in a blinded tasting test got the color of 8 M&Ms right in a row. That’s a chance of roughly 1 : 500,000 but you would not believe in her magic abilities either)

It is however, more palatable that the messy nature of analog signals is subject to cable influences. I cannot rule out that digital cables are as well, which is what makes it interesting. But manufacturers making the claim with poor explanations are not providing the extraordinary evidence required by extraordinary claims. How are they even developing these cables to justify 1,500 euros if they have apparently no idea what they do or how?

Just remember that the next time someone tells you that a magic stone or frozen CD sound better to them, you have no grounds to doubt them.

I don’t rely on what others say or on what is advertised. I just test at home , knowing that I can return if not satisfied. But as a lot of people on many forums observe positive results with audiophile switches, and recognised audio magazines post positive results too, I gave me the desire to test. And now I know that it works, because I tried it at home.
It’s absolutely nothing in common in magic belief or blind trusting.
Your scientific knowledge doesn’t give you the right to think that others lacking it are stupid. Not?

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In my opinion you are ignoring the body of evidence of how susceptible our minds are. You are not a measurement apparatus. Though yes, that’s all that we can do most of the time, so we learn and maybe get better at it, or maybe not. Willfully ignoring it is still not a good idea, IMO. (Recently there was a thread about a Nova sounding off and everyone was going on about run-in, etc. The OP was convinced it had sounded just fine the day before. Then it turned out that the speaker terminal jumpers had never been fitted. But it DID sound fine the day before to the owner! That would most likely not happened to you or me, but we all have weaknesses)

Anyways, we will never agree on this, and such a long discussion was not my intent. And you are anyways ignoring 90% of each of my posts. So let’s leave it there. My opinion remains (and that was the only reason for my first response) that labeling a fellow forumer a troll with a huge image because of your difference of opinion was poor form.

Your perception of cables and equipment is valid for you FR.

There might be others who share your perception

What you can’t do, is expect, or demand, that others agree with your perception.