Euro 2024

England are now decent and reliable, where they usedvy to be a bit embarrassing but what is their record against top ten teams in competitive fixtures under Southgate? Poor.

They qualify OK, and are consistently in the knockout stages but nothing suggests at the moment they will be winning anything.

Any new manager will have (lose) the club v country battle and be unable to consistently play the best players together, and when they get to a tournament half will be chronically injured and most knackered.

Bruce

I actively avoid football forums because I subscribe to the idea that they should be shut down for at least 24 hours after a game has ceased to allow some kind of calm rational perspective to emerge. Sadly we now live in a world where that principle should perhaps apply to football discussions elsewhere.

The idea that there’s a lack of enthusiasm for the current team is laughable. The numbers in Germany belie that as does the media coverage. That the outcome wasn’t as hoped for doesn’t take away from that.

The grass is always greener. Still, there are experts here who feel the only England manager to achieve consistent knockout success since 1970 should go because he lost 2 finals narrowly and it wasn’t as exciting as you hoped.

This despite the fact that anyone who watches football week in week out knows that it generally isn’t exciting and despite the fact that rational voices will note the huge progress of the past 8 years and that, for example, had Liverpool sacked Jurgen Klopp after losing his first 2 cup finals; Aberdeen sacked Fergie after losing his first cup final and Juve sacked Trappatoni after losing his first 2 cup finals, which 0s what all of them did. Miserable failures the lot of them. The experts would have ended their careeets before they began. Rinus Michels changed the face of football but, after losing a World Cup Final, the Dutch sacked him off; the international team spent 12 years in the wilderness and won the only trophy in their history when they reappointed the guy that their media had branded “the loser”.

One trophy in more than a century has given England fans a sense of entitlement which, to anyone outside of it, beggars belief really. “58 years of hurt”. Try not qualifying at all for a similar length. The fact that not one poster has said “Do you know what? At the end of a 50+ game season; carrying multiple exhausted or injured players to even make the final was astonishing” is really not a good look if we’re being honest.

Then we have the banging on about Southgate’s failure to be proactive. Thought we’d put that to bed earlier. The UEFA stats. from this tournament in isolation show that the managers who made the first substitution lost the most games. Now obviously for some that only occurs because they progressed so far but still. The reality is that all subs are a gamble and no-one, but no-one, can predict how it works out.

People see Palmer come on and score and all they can think of is not “Wow, that worked” but “the manager is an idiot. I know much better than him. Imagine what we’d have done if he’d come on 30 minutes earlier or even started the game”. This is, to put it politely, magical thinking of the highest order. He could have started the game and been injured in the first 2 minutes. He could have been sent off. He could have seen the opposition suss him out and utterly sideline him as they did with Saka, Bellingham and Mainoo for example. The sub worked because the Spanish hadn’t time to understand and get to grips with where Palmer would operate and because he hit it well and it took a friendly deflection. A mix of timing and luck then. Actually the best possible outcome a manager could have but no. The man is an apparently an idiot.

Losing finals hurts. They’ve lost one on pens. and one to a brilliant late goal having scored one of their own. It’s not a national tragedy and it absolutely doesn’t make the manager the defensive, intransigent fool that many here would insist upon. He lost 2 games. Big games but 2. Not 20. 2. He lost by fine margins. That’s the very definition of football. It’s not grounds for dismissal. Yeah he may well go now but if he does it won’t be because he can’t progress things further. He has professionalised a lot of unprofessional stuff and dealt with more idiocy from the media and fans in 8 years than most face in a lifetime. He’s not there because he’s pals with the FA. He’s there because he’s shown you can raise standards; achieve more than you have in 50 years and not go insane. To face up to idiots throwing beer at you because of a football game and to walk towards them. Frankly you don’t deserve him as a manager.

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We finally agree on something we don’t deserve Gareth Southgate he’s far to good for us and should punish us all immediately by leaving.

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One thing though is that we do watch football to be entertained. To me the result isn’t everything, I do expect good, entertaining, play. As with anything there’s a balance.

For example, my team, Ajax won four consecutive championships in a row under Frank the Boer, a club legend. Despite his success everyone was happy to see him go, because every other week we had to watch another boring game.

The problem with England is that we have achieved both boring and lack of winning ( lets not call it failure). :grin:

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Gareth Southgate has taken this squad as far as he is capable of doing as was the case after the last Euros.

And why shouldn’t we hope to win a trophy and say the failure to do so after two finals a semi final and s quarter final is a failure.

We went into a major tournament with a manager who didn’t have a clue what he’s best 11 was and experimented throughout the tournament.

He’s very “successful” though, Bob!!! Not as good as Capello though, who has a higher win % rate.

Neither have won a trophy, which as we know, is the only true measure of ‘success’ in international football. I think Southgate will go, but time will tell…

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I think GS has done several hugely important things in his time as manager. He has fostered a real sense of pride in England players wearing an England shirt. I just don’t buy this ‘club v country’ thing - all our players look hugely proud to be playing for their country (and their manager). He has also removed the sheer terror that some players had when they put on an England shirt and overcome the same terror when taking penalties. He has got us to consistently get through knockout stages to semi-finals or finals. And, apart from the beer throwing idiots (who will always be there), I think that he has reinforced the bond between team and fans.
However, I think he has reached his level of competency wrt to squad development and game management. We absolutely remain a team of moments and have got as far as we did by moments of sheer individual brilliance, not because of game management. With the players at our disposal, is it enough to be happy as noble ‘also rans’? I don’t think it is. I think it is time for him to step down with our heartfelt thanks for what he has done and let someone else build on the genuine improvements he has made

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I understand that. We had Rafa Benitez at Newcastle. Tactical genius, and he did well. But unpopular with a good portion of the fan base, due to the unattractive sterile football played.

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Bukayo Saka one trick pony.

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The main problem is football being overhyped by the media in the first place.
We are told we have world class players and all they need is to cross the line and they should win. It probably goes on in other countries as well.
We then blame the manager for the fact other countries also produce very good players capable of beating us.
I heard one news report saying the loss was disappointing as we were one of the favourites to win it. Surely getting to the final and losing as one of the favourites is a good effort.
We can all find fault with some of the decisions and I’m as guilty as anybody of this, it’s part of football’s many opinions, of which most are incorrect.
At least Southgate has the intelligence to understand this nonsense and not allow it to deflect him from being a very successful England manager. I can’t think of anybody who at this moment could replace him and meet with equal success.

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With the English media beating themselves up over England’s dismal failure to win Euro 2024, and the resultant widespread calls for Gareth Southgate’s removal as manager, it’s maybe worth remembering the outcomes since 1960.

Year Winner Score Runner-up
2024 Spain 2-1 England
2021 Italy 1–1 (a.e.t.), (3–2 p) England
2016 Portugal 1–0 aet France
2012 Spain 4-0 Italy
2008 Spain 1-0 Germany
2004 Greece 1-0 Portugal
2000 France 2-1 asdet Italy
1996 Germany 2-1 asdet Czechia
1992 Denmark 2-0 Germany
1988 Netherlands 2-0 Soviet Union
1984 France 2-0 Spain
1980 West Germany 2-1 Belgium
1976 Czechoslovakia 2-2 aet / (5-3) ps West Germany
1972 West Germany 3-0 Soviet Union
1968 Italy 1-1 aet / 2-0 replay Yugoslavia
1964 Spain 2-1 Soviet Union
1960 Soviet Union 2-1 aet Yugoslavia

aet = after extra time
asdet =after sudden death extra time
ps = after penalty shootout

There are serial winners such as Spain, Germany and France, whilst there’s a couple of highly regarded teams like Croatia and Belgium, who have, thus far, garnered “nul points”.

So, maybe it’s time to lose that media conjured frenzy of entitlement, and instead, just be happy at how well both the team and the manager actually did.

The Tartan Army travelled to Germany, more in hope than expectation, merely seeking confirmation that their team was every bit as crap as they had suspected all along, and had a great time keeping both themselves and the locals entertained.

Time to cheer up, and get over it.

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BBC. No arguing here.

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I think what the (winners) chart shows is that England is the only European footballing ‘superpower’ (for want of a better term) not to win the Euros. I find it interesting how ready we are to rationalise failure on the basis that we’ve failed before. The big worry for me is the complete lack of world class English managers. You’re an EPL team, Southgate resigns and he’s coming to your club - what are you thinking? If ok is acceptable Southgate’s done well. If excitement and or winning matters we’re left with rationalising achievements. I’m hoping we see more risk and less safety first going forward. Southgate’s a good bloke who’s added value. He would leave us better than he found us which is great. We need to kick on though. I don’t think Southgate can do that. If he stays, hopefully he can. But surely we’re entitled to be excited for longer than it takes to come from behind before sitting back again? Maybe not.

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Opta Analyst team of the tournament:

Get in Marc Guehi!

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Well said. My sentiments entirely.
Gareth Southgate HAS done a lot of good things, particularly “off the pitch”.
No-one can question his integrity, nor the fact that the whole England set-up is considerably better organised, and respected, now compared to the shambles he inherited.
Unfortunately, “on the pitch” he has continued to make the same errors of judgement - lack of left-sided balance, misplaced loyalty to out-of-form players, too cautious, and too late to change system or players during a game.
Prior to the tournament, there was a general consensus that our attack was extremely strong, but our defence weak. The reality was exactly the opposite (despite playing a right-back as a left back for most of the matches). It has been our slow build-up play, lack of penetration and chances created that was our undoing.
Having said all of that, I’m not sure who is the natural replacement. Eddie Howe and Graham Potter seem the obvious candidates if an “English” manager is seen to be a prerequisite. The obvious “foreign” names are unlikely to be interested and/or acceptable to the FA.
I would put money on Gareth himself calling it a day within the next few days. The FA have a bit of time before 2026 World Cup qualifying starts in March 2025.

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One can just imagine the Anfield conversation.

“Yes Jurgen, we know the football is attractive but you’ve lost two finals quite badly and we’re looking to kick on mate so farewell.”

Over at Stamford Bridge.

“The football has become turgid and defensive but you keep winning those trophies Jose and we’ll be friends for life.”

Turns out neither scenario is true. Klopp probably lost more than he ought to have won but could he forgiven because style matters and yet if you win ugly style absolutely doesn’t matter up to a point. Southgate has generally won ugly but it only matters when you lose a final by 1 brilliant goal 4 minutes from the end. All perspective put of the window really. Getting specific, what would this “pushing on” look like? He has the best players in the country; has barely put a foot wrong; has made real torrnament progress look almost routine (it’s almost like some here have forgotten 2000 to 2012 example) and has no club v country dilemmas. The players want to play for their country. There’s nothing left to “push on” for bar just getting a break and winning something. The margins on that are so fine that to disrespect the manager is fairly offensive. If Kane had been fit; Bellingham, Rice and Saka not exhausted and Shaw not injured for half a season then all those fine margins could have fallen differently. None of them things within the control of the manager. By all means name the manager who can magically avoid the whims of fortune. I doubt any of us will ever come across one.

“Yes but he could have done this” is just nonsense really as already noted. Yeah, he could. You have zero evidence it would have made a difference for him or any other manager. By all means go get your wonderful fictional brilliant stylish hero manager. Let’s see what they do when faced with players dead on their feet or injured. If pushing on means “must win a trophy” then good luck with that. The amount of sheer luck required in the modern game means that all the world’s greatest managers remain hostages to fortune.

A couple of further observations. @Collywobbles table is a fabulous example of the sort of nonsense interpretations only the English football fan could invent.

1 - possession? Who cares? Possession doesn’t win games. Never has. If it did then the team 2nd behind Spain would surely have made the final and won. They didn’t.

2 - The only figure where the Spanish were best and it mattered was goals from open play and XG. According to those stats there’s 15 to 20 teams better than England in multiple respects and yet none of them made the final.

3 - Whst it largely tells you are that stats. are interesting but have an imperfect role in football. Had it been otherwise then predicting the finalists and winner would;d have been easy.

So it’s better to be lucky than good. Spain were lucky :wink:

The table which you describe as nonsense shows a number of main KPIs over the whole tournament. I would suggest it shows some important differences between the two sides over the last month.