I believe that’s a very good call!
Almost everyone, especially someone into music will have had first hand experience here.
Probably one of the best ways to evaluate a system on performance and whether it’s to your liking/taste.
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Hmm. Acoustic music is certainly one characteristic.. but listening to complex multi layered recordings is also key.. lesser systems can sound a mess here relying on exaggerated bass or treble to provide some intelligibility where they can sound totally in control in acoustic instrument recordings..
I agree voice is a good shout, as our ears are most sensitive to these and we tend to notice when right or slightly artificial sounding.
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Yes, of course.
However, if the system gets the tone of acoustic instruments and human voice spot on, I believe it will stand you in good stead for everything else.
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Yep, one of the listening tests I use with speakers is to listen to the spoken word. Does it sound ‘natural’?
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Well perhaps with speaker room coupling yes… but phase and micro transients and transient can be put more to the test with complex music.
Simple acoustic music is relatively simple to reproduce in a way that can sound attractive tonally, but authentic with micro details is something else.
Playing folk acoustic instruments I can hear this… for example a highly performant replay system will capture the melodeon construction and reed quality and type as well as subtle bellow control and fingering sounds say with a melodeon. It can sound still attractive on a lesser systems.. but then it just sounds like a generic melodeon being played
But yes I say voice is a good test specifically for the mid band, but careful not to rely on close microphoned, eq’d and heavily compressed vocals used on many contemporary productions.
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I’ve just been using the spoken word to test a new subwoofer integration into my system. In fact a complete album of the spoken word, Derek and Clive live. It was so “spot on” i had to cover the cat’s ears lol.
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I think that this is a really difficult question. These days for headphone listening in patticular you can get good sound for not much money, I regularly listen with my phone and some Sony WF-C700s. Maybe not really hifi but compared to what you could get even 10 years ago probably a revelation. For not much more you can combine a Dragonfly Red with a phone or PC and some decent wired phones - will sound very good by most peoples standards.
For a system with speakers it is more tricky - 2nd hand there are loads of decent cheap options, my office system is an old SuperUniti with a pair of even older Dynaudio Audience 52s which I often listen to quite happily for hours on end. Buying new,an Atom HE with active PMC’s might not be a bad start, probably good enough for most.
For me, the sweet spot is something that brings our (most) of the benefit of well recorded material whilst still sounding acceptable on rougher material. The mid range Naim systems I have heard (SN3 based in particular) do this well
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Yes, it has everything to do with the high quality of a music system! Listening to a good piece of music is like drinking a good glass of wine. If you don’t enjoy it, or if you don’t tap your feet or feel good about a piece of music, you know it is not good, it doesn’t have PRAT.
I think @mikeyb and @sean86 both made a commendable effort to put this difficult to define thing into words. Reading it I knew exactly what they meant, even when it will always be an approximate description.
Some observations from my perspective:
- It’s not really about price per sé - I always enjoy the Rega System One £999 at my dealer.
- It’s also location and mood dependent - like others I enjoy the Technics and scruffy gear at the record store that always seems to sound good
- It’s definitely room dependent - our apartment with very strange acoustics, a house, or a small room makes a big difference, and whether you are there alone or with (many) others
- It’s likely a brand philosophy thing - I tend to instantly like Rega and Naim systems
- It’s mainly in the source IMO - that good feeling here increased every time I did a source upgrade (first). I’m now at a level where any file/stream, recording/pressing sounds good (enough) and goes up from there. P1 to P3 in Rega System One also instantly lifts it off.
So how much you need to spend is very personal and also about spending it on the right things.
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While tapping feet might be what PRaT means to you, it is no indication of good sound. Watching something on TV, hearing some particular unexpected incidental music through the crummy flat screen TV speaker can start my foot tapping. Similarly sitting at a table in food hall something played over the echoey background music system can do the same. I can go to a live concert of acoustic music and not tap feet at all. I can go to a gig with rock music with a less than great PA system and move to it - the louder and more familiar the more likely to happen. And with hifi, play the same rhythmic music louder is more likely to trigger foot tapping - and I suspect that anything in the system that accentuates the rhythmic element of the music, perhaps an unnatural boost of the upper bass, would do the same even if timing of the system is not perfect. No, despite its common references on this forum, I am far from convinced that foot tapping has anything whatsoever to do with the accuracy of timing of a system, which is what I understand is supposed to be the key requirement for good PRaT, but could in one circumstance be a measure of the dominance of the rhythm in a piece of music, or in the other a recognition reaction to something unexpected.
As for a good feeling from listening to music, that can happen even with the worst possible system, if the music is good. It is music that creates a good feeling listening to it not the system it s played through, though of course the better the system the more enjoyment might be possible on multiple levels, but is that PRaT or simply better sound, which might be any one or more of clarity or naturalness or detail or soundstage or quieter background, or a host of other characteristics,.
(Sorry mikeyb, I don’t know why this shows as a response to you when it was to sean66.)
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I agree with innocent bystander here, I don’t think foot tapping is half as important as the old Linn doctrine would have you believe. I can tap my feet spontaneously when listening to even a crappy radio if I like the song, so it really signifies little.
I should preface this by saying I am no electrical or acoustic engineer, however these are my observations based on years of listening to different gear.
I feel there are many aspects which are necessary elements of any quality audio system, but the one thing (imho) that I think is common to all great audio systems is the ability to enable the listener to separate musical strands from each other more easily. As my system has got better and using Fleetwood Mac’s Rumours as a test record (because everyone knows it!) the better the system, the more clearly each individual element of a song will be defined. You can really hear what John McVie is playing on the bass for example and how he is locked into Mick Fleetwood’s rhythm. All the other subtleties from harmony vocals to tambourines or other subtle instruments and effects will similarly be laid bare and sound very transparent. I sometimes wonder if this is because the original recording was of course a multitrack one which is then combined into a two channel master for record, CD and stream production. Somehow better systems just seem to get closer to that original master which is only a generation on from the multitrack master.
The most impressive system I ever heard was at a friend’s house who uses those ugly as sin D’Agostino reference amps into Wilson Audio Alexx V. He’s got really high end sources - vinyl is an SME Model 60 with a £15k cartridge, streaming is some kind of multibox DCS combo and the CD player is I think a Wadia so it’s probably over half a million pounds of audiophile wet dream. He’s running a 1m length of interconnect that costs £15k and all other cables are similarly exotic. What struck me listening to it was the incredible transparency - you could simply hear everything so unbelievably clearly. Every breath, foot tap or guitar note just sounded live in the room because it had unlimited bandwidth, scale, image and speed. He played a live recording of Guantanamera by the Weavers from their “reunion at Carnegie Hall” album and he played it at the level it would be if the band were right in front of me. (check it out, it’s on Tidal) and God in heaven I was in tears by the end of it, they were running all down my face. I don’t think any hi-fi system in the world has ever hit me emotionally quite so hard, it was just unbelievably beautiful. Bandwidth was limitless, dynamics were extraordinary (because lets face it those D’Agostino amps can swing massive current in an instant). It left a lifelong lasting impression, it really did… I came home and put the same track on my midrange Naim system with ATC SCM40’s (both of which I love) and while it was good there was a yawning chasm between his system and mine in terms of transparency. So be under no illusions there’s a massive difference between my system which at new equivalent replacement value is probably around £40 000 and his £500 000+ system. I can’t stand the looks of those D’Agostino amps they’re butt ugly (although clearly pretty amazing!), but I left with a deep respect for those Wilson Audio speakers and a fair bit of lust for them…
As for PRAT I tend to simplistically regard it as the ability to render the attack, sustain, decay and release of a note accurately with respect to timing. Speakers that boom or overhang (frequently due to having poorly executed ports for example) will play havoc with this. As will amplifiers that are not capable of delivering sufficient current quickly enough to get a speaker cone rapidly moving and execute that movement under precise control. This is linked to dynamics too because if you stand next to a live drummer hitting a snare it’s shocking just how hard and fast the transient sound wave hits. If you want to reproduce this at highish listening levels in a medium sized room you need a fair degree of power and a very responsive and quick reacting system. Bandwidth is important too - you’re not going to hear that McVie bass or the kick drum properly if the system and in particular the speakers can’t go down low and cleanly.
It seems to me that Naim amplifiers seem to be particularly good at rendering this attack, sustain, decay and release of notes accurately and I favour speakers with similar qualities too. It’s my undertanding that Naim have worked with various transistor manufacturers to perfect transistors that react more quickly, so perhaps that partly explains their ability in this area.
Traditionally Naim amps then have always been fast but the single biggest thing that makes the new 300 series so extraordinary in my view is that they combine all of that speed with a much cleaner top end than the olive series I use currently. Simply there’s a lot less grain and a lot more purity.
The issue of “timing” or PRAT would seem to be less of a problem for digital sources, but it certainly is an issue for turntables where speed stability, suspension design and vibration control pay a large part in ensuring accurate timing. I always think Rega decks excel at this (as do Vertere) as well as Technics direct drive models and perhaps that’s because they aren’t really sprung in any conventional way. Any significant suspension movement is going to throw off speed accuracy and timing momentarily.
Merely my observations, but it’s a very interesting discussion!
JonathanG
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Well expressed! Just one observation: you mention speakers that boom or overhang, noting that design can be the cause, but it is worth noting that in many rooms the cause can be the room. Rather than address the room people often “solve” the issue by using speakers that omit the bass, but that also omits part of the music.
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This, I fully agree. The short version of this excellent summary is the worst possible system which produces the worst sound will be able to create a good feeling, and good feeling is usually associated with good sound. However, it can also be poor sound. What a complicated subject!~
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I remember my first decent system. Ok it was a vinyl only system bought in the mid 80’s.
Rega Planar 3, Creek 4040 integrated amp with phono stage included and Heybrook HB1 speakers.
£500 all in. Ok with inflation that’s probably nearer £1500 today but that was a wonderful sounding system.
Yes I’ve bought different stuff over the years and my current amps & speakers were both bought on the used market.
I would reckon £1500 to £2000 should get a very nice source,amp,speakers combo today. Probably need to buy used and you might find something nearer the lower figure of that.
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Good sound starts at £100,001. Anything below that is garbage.
It doesn’t matter what brand or components you spend your money on it is the amount spent that is important.
Is that a suitably ridiculous reply to a ridiculous question?
(Answered by someone with a sub 10K system who thought that they enjoyed it but is wondering now).
I just love the rudeness that one encounters on the WWW.
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That’s because you will insist on running them passive, Jonathan! Whilst active 40s may just yield to your friend’s system, active 50s will simply blow it out of the water! 
Roger
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It was intended as banter Nigel, but I apologise if it didn’t come over as such.
The question was essentially ‘how much do I need to spend for good sound?’
How long is a piece of string?
How much water can I pour into a jug before it overflows?
How many Cheese and Ham toasties can I eat before my office chair breaks?
All these questions are far too open ended for meaningful discussion.
You can spend tens of thousands on a high quality source component but if you output it through a 1980’s Ghetto Blaster it likely isn’t going to sound great. Good sound comes from a combination of good components which work in harmony together. I have demo’d very expensive components which had rave reviews but sounded worse than the far cheaper alternative I have in my system. No doubt they are better but the synergy wasn’t there. That is why many people stick to a single brand of equipment (like Naim) because 99% of the time the research team did the hard work for you to make sure the components work well together.
If the question had been ‘How much was/is the most affordable system you have ever heard which you consider to be High Fidelity?’ I could get behind that, but an arbitrary how much do I need to spend ‘for it to sound good’ seems ridiculous to me. ymmv.
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Haha I don’t disagree re: your 50’s and you may well be right!! Yeah I’m stuck with passive though due to being a reviewer… An active speaker would just cause too many complications…
Enjoy those magnificent 50’s though!! I’m hoping to take delivery of a set of NAP 350 monoblocks this week which should get the buggers moving!!! It’s all part of a phased upgrade process I’m undertaking…
JonathanG
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My CD5x stopped working a while back, transport was working but no sound so I went to Marantz and replaced it with the SA12se, sounds great and has a streamer built in and headphone amp that sounds good, connected to entry level Naim Amp and Per Amp with Focal speakers, for my ears sound good. £1600 for the CD player, approx £2500 for the Naim stuff, (It was a long while ago I bought it so cannot remember). I also bought a Techniks SL1500c £800 and £2500 for the speakers.
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