One thing that comes out of all this, is that different people have different ideas of what constitutes good sound from a system.
One thing that comes out of all this, is that different people have different ideas of what constitutes good sound from a system.
Something to which your post alludes, and I have mentioned previously, is that for some people aspects like scale and full bandwidth matter, while others may be perfectly happy with part of the music suppressed or even missing. People’s taste in music can be significant to this. And that makes a major difference to the cost of a decent system, low bass in particular being considerably more demanding of speakers and maybe amplification to reproduce satisfactorily, with corresponding and disproportionately higher cost to achieve.
“You say on almost all accounts, but by what margin in your opinion?”
Naim has a different sound then AVM. While I enjoy NAIM soundsignature I also like the strenghts that AVM brings ( analytic, detail but also a lot of bass controll) Maybe this is maybe my fall. I dont want to lose the strenghts that AVM brings but also want the signature PRaT of NAIM.
And only with 222/300/350/350 I got that compromise that I got Naim while not losing too much of the benefits / specific qualities of AVM that are not directly NAIM’s forte.
Much of this was gained by picking 350 mono’s instead of the NAP 250 due to the power output difference with the AVM amplifier. And the 300 NPX gave a boost on streaming quality so that it also improved in detail and depth closer/equal to my current streamer.
So basically the pricy consequences of not wanting to lose “the strenghts” of AVM while picking another brand ( Naim) that prioritises other qualities. This and Naim just being a more expensive brand.
I wonder how it would have been with a 332/333/300/250 by comparison, even though I suspect more power was needed with those speakers.
Naim PRaT is addictive so no wonder why you want it and I also understand your point of view about detail and clarity, the bare 222/250 does not have enough of them in my opinion and you really need the NPX300… but at a cost.
The talk of Naim sound and of PRaT on here I find bemusing because neither is defined in terms as of sound, and may well mean slightly different things to different people, making it all rather meaningless overall!
As for Naim sound, it is interesting that once was to do with amps has been suggested is provided by having only Naim streamer (though the only Naim thing I’ve heard was a streamer, which was remarkably similar sounding to previous non-Naim CDP, and it wasn’t really a ‘sound’ that changed when I moved on, at least not what I imagine people mean by Naim Sound. As for new vx old Naim gear, and reduced Naim sound that some have mentioned, I have previously postulated an explanation and it is nothing to do with reduced PRaT, if PRaT is to do with timing.
second- as much as you can on acoustics/room treatment. After that, you will be surprised by the quality of the existing system and the urge to upgrade may calm down for a long period..
I recall walking into a demo at a Bristol show, where as I turned to walk out because of the (to me) excessive one note bass, screechy treble, I had to skirt round two people, one saying “Wow, great PRaT.”
When I hear the term PRaT I assume, from reading and days at hifi shows, that it refers to sound that is generally lean, unbalanced, a bit in your face and generally annoying to listen to.
As others have said there is no definition.. different systems can focus on different aspects - and can be enjoyable in different ways.
An iPhone with a pair of Air Pod Max’s is pretty impressive for when out and about… I love it - and it has an attractive sound signature, especially when you slightly cut the bass and lift the table in the iPhone EQ. Works well with hidef lossless files on Apple (slough the Air Pod Max uses lossy BlueTooth… but boy it can provide an emotional rendition…
But then at home in my main listening room of relatively modest proportions I like to have a system where I want to listen into and be captivated with the qualities of the production and the moment of the recording – many recordings tell their own stories here .. now for this you tend to need to start to pay for higher end.. but it is not necessary for musical enjoyment alone…
So there really is no answer - and there are some really quite good low cost audio products out there now - many with a slightly filtered fairly dynamic presentation - that can hide a multitude of sins.
I would suggest near and mid field listening is cheaper to get a good system compatible for your listening environment compared to a large scale far field listening system… where typically you need to get into room treatments etc
Once again another interesting topic and one of the reasons I decided to stay in the forum
I think once again we are discussing a subject that is close to my heart when it comes to spending without interpretation of what either is missing or needed to increase your listening enjoyment. I don’t know in today’s terms the value in pounds what my system is worth,but in musical terms I have never been able to buy such a wise range of music and genres that I do now. Sure there are issues with recordings etc but surely the value of what your system is again not in financial terms but the value of how it grabs you and three hours later you are still listening looking at the CD rack thinking what can put on next, not worrying about what you can’t. Just like HH comments about pants doing the one thing that they should do, people still buy expensive ones but hopefully they are only seen in an intimate setting, HiFi is it for your enjoyment or a badge of honor like expensive watches that someone has to know what you have to make you confident you made the right choice or you really know your stuff because you had to spend to get what you perceived was the best to be satisfied.
No idea! As my first paragraph says, they are not defined, hence my bemusement at their frequent use! From the discussions in the thread that I linked, it seems everybody has their own idea of what PRaT is, but IIRC it seemed to boil down to engagement – which to me is much more down to the music than the system!
I hope the link is allowed as it is a good article.I liked these concluding comments. I have always felt that you really need to judge a system by listening to acoustic instrumental music, or a voice.
One of the conceits of the audio industry is that we need golden ears or training to be able to discern good audio reproduction from bad. Many years ago, a friend of mine was auditioning speakers at a hi-fi dealer’s shop. He did not like the sound produced by the heavily-promoted major brand, and said so. In barely concealed irritation the shop assistant snapped at him “…but how are you listening?”. The question was loaded with contempt. How could he be discerning? He was only a customer, not an audio professional. My friend calmly replied “With my ears.”
Most of us, even if we have not been to a concert or listened to the radio for decades, have a memory of how various instruments sound. If we occasionally top up that memory by attending live musical events, and we have a working pair of ears, then we have all that is required to be a discerning listener and make informed judgements about how an audio system is performing.
One of the traps here is that the live experiences really need to be purely acoustic, rather than of electronic, or amplified acoustic instruments. That’s not to imply criticism, or suggest a hierarchy of artistic value, but simply to observe that music derived from electronic sources is not a reliable reference because it can be manipulated sonically even at the point of performance. In contrast a violin or human voice delivered purely acoustically is what it is; we can bank the memory in confidence and compare it with what our audio system is producing.
So I actually had a reason to think about this recently. Last week I replaced my pc speakers I had Bose companion 2’s which were better than a lot of cheap speakers but I wanted to see if I could actually get good sound even with the space restrictions.
Went on a deep dive through multiple forums, ended up with the kanto ora’s (around £275). Discovered my Bose speakers actually had some distortion I hadn’t noticed. The kanto’s actually sound really good especially for the price. Obviously my system sounds better but it’s not as big a difference as you’d expect and that’s without me adding a sub to the kanto’s. I have been concerned that my sensitivity to treble meant I need a good system to truly enjoy music but this reassured me that is not the case.
Honestly if my system has any issues I’d happily listen to the kanto’s till the repair was complete. Makes me interested in other active speakers like the new Harbeth ones.
