What’s your problem? I thought there was a reasonable exchange of views, albeit quite opposite, based on different knowledge and experiences. But if that how you feel fair enough bow out.
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Several posts on here re solar panels. We are considering them, currently awaiting surveys/quotes (which is taking a long time!). For anyone in north west England or in the north of the Island of Ireland (similar latitude and possibly cloud cover), do you know what sort of average energy output you get in middle of winter as proportion of summer high? (Yes I know it depends on orientation, but just trying to get a more realistic estimate of likely range rather than the sort of things stated by suppliers.)
Several people have mentioned batteries with solar. Does anyone here have a PV system without, and if so can you expand on reason why you didn’t go for one?
The discussion seems to have heated up, if only we could use that energy to heat peoples houses we wouldn’t have a problem.
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Load of help on
There are at least 2 of us in the North-west
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I notice in the pics the UK seems to still mostly use copper pipes.
About 15 years ago when I had a plumber in and saw where I was used hose. I asked why. He said there were a few reasons hose was far superior to copper:
- Reduces burst pipes in the home as a result of earthquakes and freezing (both major issues where I am).
- It’s a poor conductor of heat so heat loss is much less enroute to radiators. With copper you’re wasting energy heating the pipe too.
- Much faster to work with. No welding or soldering. Big problems can be fixed very fast.
Obviously, the second of those points is the pertinent one to this thread.
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Yes, I think, ultimately for most people, the need for Double Glazing units or Triple Glazing units will be dictated by the Building Regulation requirements, Part L for U-Values for windows. I see that in the UK it is now 1.2 W/m2k, here in Norway it is now 0.8 W/m2k.
I think it is very unlikely that a DG unit will achieve Norway standards. Then of course there is the sound insulation requirements to factor in. I suspect that as Velux is a global supplier, providing customers in the UK a TG option is because of the demand for TG units elsewhere, Central and Northern Europe, for example. They produce them for other markets so why not offer them anyway. In addition, eventually DG units will be fazed out as demand dwindles and U-Values get better.
Another point on Velux TG, the sound insulation requirements are specific around busy airport terminals and because Velux are installed in roofs, they are subject to greater noise pollution from aircraft, you can factor in 100,000’s of homes across London as an example. The windows need to meet those requirements or be part of the equation that determines conformity for loft conversions for dB levels.
You could also make an argument that, depending on the circumstance, if the seal between the glass sheets failed in a DG unit the outcome is more fatal than it would be in a TG unit (if only one seal fails). As in the TG unit would still be providing better insulation and be usable.
I would also suggest that any ‘experienced’ manufacturer of TG units are probably not based in the UK and/or have been making them for quite some time, so any manufacturing issues are probably resolved as much as they are for DG units because of manufacturing longevity.
I remember in the ‘old days’ when DG units first came out, seal failure rates were quite high in the early stages after installation, almost certainly due to manufacture and quality control immaturity.
Referring to my earlier post nr. 63, DG units would not achieve the 0.7 - 0.5 U-Values that I get with the TG units, but we are all very acutely aware that the glazing system, like HiFi " is only as good as the weakest link".
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If the pipework is in an area where heat loss may be significant then the pipes should be lagged. My mate’s home has a suspended floor downstairs and air flows through this area as part of the design of the pre-war house so all the pipes have thick Armacell lagging.
Copper is strong and largely self-supporting, these days plastic is often combined with copper to make installation easier. There’s only four solder joints in mine where the low profile of copper joints is advantageous in a tight area.
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Thanks @JOF - that fits with my understanding. For my son it just made sense while maxing out the insulation in the (large) room-in-roof and doubling the size of one of the roof lights to go the whole hog and get triple glazed.
As for dictated by Building Regs, unless someone wants to go better than the current standard!
Incidentally, are fibreglass frames used in Norway? Maybe for larger openings like patio doors?
We had ours installed when the house was built / converted from a farm building 15 years ago. I think it’s the best thing we did (house always smells fresh, efficient heating and no condensation), my bro in law next door hates it because it sucks in fumes from his wood burner so he has it turned off
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We can get uPVC windows but I am not sure about fibreglass.
On the whole there is still some snobbery here about window materials, here most people will specify wooden windows with outside aluminium flashing. The reason for that is that they are manufactured in Scandinavia from high quality (very slow growing) timber, in addition, you can now get wooden windows with an insulated thermal break sandwiched in.
This one from Nordan.
Here’s one example from Germany.
I dont specify uPVC windows because I don’t like they way they look and they tend to fade under UV light over time making them look really ugly in the long term.
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I just found this British company who seem to supply Norwegian windows to the British market, norrsken. Also Passive House standard windows.
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I once did a complete CH self install… must have been 30 years ago now. I used plastic push fits all round. Took me about 5 hours to fit the boiler from scratch. Then about a week fitting the complete CH system with rads. tbh I wasn’t 100% happy with it… e.g. the 22mm pipe was a so-and-so to run 'cause it came on a roll from SF and very hard to make straight. That aside, it was quicker than copper but I didn’t really trust the joints and the thicker walls on the pipes and fitting reduced flow. Since then I’ve always used copper where ever possible; if it’s somewhere that’s beyond my ken to solder or, for example, reaching under a stud wall then I use copper push fits - expensive but very good and NEVER fail. I do prefer the natural rigidity and strength of copper pipe work and I always lag the pipes. Round our way the pro-plumbers all seem to stick to copper. I’ve found, if I find plastic plumbing, then it’s been an amateur job.
btw… wondering about trying one of those pipe soldering irons… anyone tried one?
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I’ve completely re-plumbed and installed central heating in two houses, and done lots of modifications to plumbing in several other houses.
I much prefer copper to plastic generally, using soldered joints, wherever practicable (unless it’s something I know, might want to be demountable).
I’ve only used plastic myself where it has been particularly difficult to instal a long length of pipe, necessarily of larger bore than microbore, through a non-straight inaccessible space. The only failures of copper I’ve known have been perforations in old pipes in an aggressive water area, and once I was calked in to investigate blue water in a recent installation in public building - confirmed as copper dissolving from the pipework, identified as inappropriate grade if copper for the aggressive mains water in that locality. On the other hand a family member suffered a failure of a plastic pipe push-fit joint (installed by a professional company fitting a bathroom), which was catastrophic as the mains water flowing for many hours flooded most of the ground floor, wuth extensive damage to home and possessions. The root cause was never identified (faulty pipe, fitting or installation), and that did nothing to dispel my latent distrust.
And, incidentally, with reference to something someone mentioned earlier, I’ve never yet come across central heating pipes installed by professional installers being insulated when beneath a suspended ground floor in areas openly vented to outside through airbricks. Duly rectified where I haven’t been replacing.
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100% on board with you here… never had a copper setup fail but I’ve had two instances of a plastic fitting weeping. Unfortunately a couple of weeks after refitting the flooring. Current house was done with 10mm plastic micro-bore and threaded under chipboard flooring (another hate). The flow rate to the radiators was quite poor. I’ve replaced just about every run (okay… there are two sections left where the CH pipes go under the bathroom floor) with 15mm copper and it’s a lot better. Heats up quicker (and hotter) and less noise.
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I also installed a complete central heating system when I moved into my first house. It wasn’t that difficult and soldering with a blow torch is remarkably easy, I had never done it before and a friend offered to show me how on a few joints and then watch me do a few more. The only leaky joint was one done by this friend. As far as I remember that hardest part of the job was drilling 25mm holes through a couple of 3 brick thick walls. I also repaired the boiler when it broke down after about 10 years, again fairly easily with the manual to refer to. I also rewired the house, replaced windows and made built-in wardrobes and shelving and decorated it. My view is that most trades could be done by a competent DIYer if you have enough time and energy, of course, you will likely take a lot longer to do the task and very occasionally mess up. One of the glaring exceptions is plastering anything more than a small patch. Plus anything with gas or electricity these days in the UK needs to be signed off by a registered tradesperson. I used to enjoy DIY, but these days don’t do much at all due to the fatigue I suffer from which is a shame and expensive.
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I’d bet the plastic fitting wasn’t a “Speedfit” type 
You sound very similar to myself… I’ll turn my hand to anything under the impression that I’m not stupid (well IMO) so if a pro can do this so can I. It’s just a case of practice. Knowing what’s available in the hardware helps… SF catalogue is excellent WC reading! I also tend to find that I do a better job that the pros. Okay it takes me three or four times longer but I spend a lot of that extra time getting it as perfect as I can. e.g. a pro wouldn’t waste the time getting all the pipes perfectly vertical or horizontal!
Yes! Plastering… can’t do and won’t pretend I can. Wish I could though; a good plasterer is hard to find.
Shame it’s too shiny for other WC duties, Izal/school bog paper all over again 
Thinking about it, didn’t it used to have a dull and a shiny side? Maybe I was using the wrong one all those years!
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