How & why are fuses directional?!

Too true my friend but I try as much as I can to push back against these comments. Sometimes I’ve heard more of a difference in a cable than I have in a component.

Just recently I was reading comments on a video on YouTube regarding audible differences between silver and copper. I couldn’t believe that there were so many people that were claiming there isn’t any difference. Even though silver is known to be a better conductor than copper. I’m not claiming silver is better btw. I prefer more copper than silver in a system. But I do use both.

Then there was a ‘professional’ who said he works in metals claiming that there is no scientific evidence that silver sounds different to copper. If I’m being brutally honest and having experimented as much as I have in this hobby I find these people infuriatingly ignorant. Not because they don’t agree with me but because they are likely to influence people who would otherwise listen for themselves.

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Indeed, but you haven’t answered the question

Absolutely, and the HiFi industry knows this. Nobody is trying to persuade anyone but it’s healthy to have an open mind (either way) and question yourself as to whether what you are hearing is possibly a cognitive bias.

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I have had plenty of auditions where I could not detect any difference. This is more common when I’m listening in a room that my ears are not accustomed to. In the same way we register a loved one’s voice, we register the audio properties of our listening rooms so it’s easier for us to detect more in a familiar surrounding.

When I can’t hear a difference I usually don’t buy the gear or opt for the cheaper alternative. I’ve now returned my Synergistic pink fuse after hearing the differences that it provided. Not because there wasn’t a difference but because it didn’t suit my system balance at the end.

I thought I had.

Nope, the question was how can you be certain that unconscious bias is not at play

Any or all of us may indeed be biased one or another on any subject, consciously or not. That is why I have pointed out many a time that when testing/comparing things, especially controversial or novel things, or where hype or significant expense are involved, blind testing is a simple way of excluding bias, both positive and negative. Of course some people aren’t interested in knowing facts, which is fine as long as they don’t present non-factual information in a way that others believe it is fact.

On the thread subject, I have never tested fuses myself, nor read of any controlled study, so I have no knowledge as to whether fuses do or do not have a different effect related to their orientation that in turn affects music played on connected hifi components. I can conceive of no explanation for there to be such effect, nor have I read or heard of any properly conducted experiments to assess and confirm whether there is, whether using measurements or bias-protected listening tests.

To my mind there is no logic to fuses having such effect, therefore I do not believe that there they do. Please note that this is not a declaration that there is no effect, nor am I doing anything to persuade others that those who do “believe”, or even have heard, are incorrect, though unless people describing such effects give some sort of reasonably objective evidence (such as verified by blind testing) I have no reason to be believe that the effect they may genuinely have experienced was a real change in sound

Double blind testing by design prevents bias if done properly - however in my view the rigorousness of doing it for a hobby like hifi is by no means justified, as opposed to medical research where potentially lives hinge on conclusions. That is why I have never suggeted double blind testing, but simple blind testing - it might not irradiate absolutely all possible bias, but it is infinitely better than doing nothing at all to protect against psychological influences.

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Any form of blind listening tests can be confusing. I’m not saying that nobody should do it. For anybody who wishes to carry out their gear auditions with this method, I say more power to you. However to hold this up as the reference way to judge a component is absurd.

As an example I have two digital cables, a coax and an AES. one is a custom build which cost me about £80 and the other retails for about £250. I cannot tell the difference between these cables. I’ve done this test many times with different gear. So you see I have absolutely no problem with admitting I cannot hear the difference when I don’t.

But to conclude that any user feedback in a non blind test situation is not good enough is an unfair statement imho.

As you have stated that to your mind there is no logic that fuses have an effect in a change of sound. Well to that I will say what if there is a straight wire and no fuse? Would that not sound different? And if that sounds different then what’s preventing a fuse manufactured differently to sound different.

I’ve mentioned that I’ve returned the SR pink fuse because it didn’t suit my system. It did however sound noticeably different.

Everything makes a difference. If you place a wooden slab under your amplifier it will sound different.

That is not actually what I said.

However for clarity (and I have said this before), I don’t blind test everything that I evaluate, but I do it when either deciding whether to spend any significant amount of money, or when something is hyped as being good, or when I think I head a difference from something unusual if unexpected - and I would put hearing a difference from a reversed plug fuse in that category. With some things the blind confirmation comes in a different way, e.g someone from else hearing at the same time, not having any idea what I’m comparing, and not being aware of my reaction/impression.

If I wanted to test whether a fuse will blow equally in either direction, I would ask an electrical engineer.

If I wanted to test whether a person could hear the difference in sound quality when a fuse is flipped around in a hifi system, I would ask an audio specialist psychologist.

I would see a shrink.

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If you listen to Nd5xs2 and then prefer the Ndx2, how can you be sure it’s not expectation bias?

I think you are perhaps being deliberately obtuse here…

This is what I said:

I thought that was perfectly clear enough TBH. But let’s consider things further in the light of your other comments:

I agree that an open mind is always the most sensible way forward. However, questioning yourself as to whether what you are hearing is possibly a coginitive bias is rather an absurd way to proceed IMO. The sensible way is to trust your ears. If later something happens to cause you to re-evaluate your experience then so be it. But to approach things from the perspective of ‘I really can’t trust what my ears are hearing’ is not a normal way to be IMO. How do you go about choosing new equipment? If you can’t rely on your ears then what criteria do you use? Do you choose things by the way they measure rather than the way they sound?

Do you think this approach of questioning one’s senses is confined to hi-fi only, or does it have a wider application? I can’t understand why anyone who doesn’t question their senses in all areas of daily life would single out their hi-fi system as being an area of concern. Why - what makes it different from anything else?

For example, if you see someone walking down the street do you question what your eyes are telling you? Could you be suffering a hallucination? Are they really there? Your approach means that you would have to. I personally don’t regard that as a normal and healthy way to be. My approach is that I trust my senses.

If on the other hand lets say CCTV of the scene showed that you were in fact the only person in the street then it would be necessary to re-evaluate your pereception in the light of this.

But let’s suppose that we listen to a fuse one way round in our system and hear an improvement and we do indeed choose to take the view that what we are hearing may be a cognitive bias as you put it. How does that help us? We may listen to the same fuse the other way round and hear exactly the same thing. So that proves that the fuse is not directional right - because it sound the same both ways round. Well no. Because how do we know that the fact that we don’t perceive a difference with the fuse the other way around isn’t also due to cognitive bias - and that there rsally is difference. We don’t.

So you can see that taking the stance that you seem to be suggesting, ie. of questioning what one is hearing, is really of no benefit and just ties us in knots. It means we will never be able to make any sensible choices in our systems.

To give you an explicit answer, no we can none of us ever be sure that what we hear is not due to this bias, that bias, or whatever. But the only sensible way to proceed is to assume that we can trust our ears and that what we hear is so. If something happens later to cause us to take another view on a specific perception then so be it. But that is no reason to mistrust every perception of what we hear. And to do so is fruitless.

So in short, if you believe fuses are directional because you hear a difference then you are right. If you believe they are not directional because you don’t hear a difference then you are right too.

But to believe fuses are not directional because you think that someone who says they are is experiencing some sort of pyschological bias is completely illogical.

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I’ve never tried flipping a fuse to test for sound quality.

But I have heard a positive difference in sound quality from putting in a SR fuse to a Graham’s Hydra.

I’m not opposed to the idea that a Specialist designed fuse could be made in a way that sounds different depending on the orientation of the fuse.

I have a BSc in psychology, and I think that the way to test such a thing rigorously would be to use triple blind testing with a large sample size.

About four years ago my wife and I compared redbook versus Higher Res files of an ECM track amateur single blind, and the result was not Statistically significant - but that could be because my then system (272/150x/Arivas) wasn’t resolving enough.

What I can say for sure is that it wasn’t fun doing even a single blind test.

Not enjoyable at all, listening to the same tune Multiple times in quick succession.

And this final point makes it clear how unnatural it would be to make such a comparison of Sound quality Under experimental conditions because we don’t normally listen to the same track twice or more times in Quick succession.

Not being able to conceive of a reason for an effect to occur is it seems to me perhaps a reason to remain sceptical until one has listened for oneself, but not a sesnible reason to disbelieve. The sensible reason to disbelieve is to listen for oneself and to not hear a difference. Of course if one chooses to not believe one’s own ears then even that will not settle the matter… Perhaps a blind listening test with a panel of 20 people?

Problem: they cannot trust their ears either, and neither can you. So perhaps a suite of measurements?

Problem: what to measure? If we measure X. Y and Z and find no difference can we be sure that we haven’t missed measuring something else that is in fact responsible?

For the sake of not writing page after page of detailed discussion I’ve perhaps simplified things a bit. But you get the idea.

What psychological influences precisely? How would you charactetrise them? In what circumstances may they occur? Precisely how do they relate to audio perception?

People talk of ‘expectation bias’ or 'unconcious bias" as though these things are applicable in any situation and use them to bolster their point of view. Without being trained in psychology it is inappropriate to deploy these things as explanations for anything.

Amateur psychologists, like amateur scientists, are ten a penny. When one starts to apply the rigours of real science or psychology, as opposed to the layman’s simplistic and misguided interpretation or application of them, the situation may become very different indeed.

As I mentioned in my reply to @Hollow, it seems to me that adopting the stance of not being able to trust one’s ears, and of needing to implement blind testing or measuring in order ascertain thr truth, is a very odd one. As before, I ask do you adopt this stance in your general daily life? Do you mistrust your senses? If not, then why do so with hi-fi? What makes it different to everything else in your life?

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How many times have we had discussions / debates like this before?

I respect other people’s genuinely held views here and I hope they can respect mine. We don’t need to agree or convince anyone and I’ve really got no interest in doing so.

I’m bowing out here as life’s just too short! It’s a lovely morning and I want to get out, have a nice walk and enjoy the sun.

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Problem in this thread is you will have to enjoy the sun then have a nice walk to see which way round is best for you.

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Fortunately when I heard a Statement I realised it was no better than my SN3.

Economic cognitive bias had nothing to do with it. :crazy_face:

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When I have a nice walk in the sun, i prefer to walk outbound against the wind. Knowing that walking inbound will be slightly easier with the wind pushing my tired legs.

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Firstly re listening for myself that requires time and effort, and unlike some people I don’t find trying to make comparisons enjoyable, and if I were to test for myself everything that might affect sound (and @khan84 opined that everything affects the sound - but of course it depends whether to a material degree) - fuse direction is one of a myriad of potential things - it would occupy every available listening minute and I’d never get to enjoy music. In respect of fuse direction earlier in this thread indeed I couldput it to bed by hearing for myself, however I noted that to test that is not simple/quick for me, as apart from the time and effort to listen I first would have to extricate a 45kg amp out of a cupboard to access plugs behind. Maybe next time I have to get the amp out for some unavoidable reason I might indeed have a go - and if I hear no difference I would of course have continue and do a blind test as I am clearly prejudiced.

As for your wild comment about a panel of people, (whatever the number of people) that degree is self-evidently only appropriate to justified - and is appropriate - for formal testing or in research where results will be published and used/referenced by others. To trust my own ears I only have to remove bias by blind testing for myself. As for a panel that might not trust their ears, their “trust” as to what they hear in blind testing is clearly totally irrelevant as well you must know if indeed you are a scientist as I recall you declaring at some time. Measurements are always good, though as I have observed virtually every time I have discussed, they can confirm difference, and when they do, if consistent and repeatable that is irrefutable evidence, but tests cannot prove absence of any possible audible difference as the human ear may be sensitive to differences below the limits of measurement (or parameters not measured).

That is completely irrelevant, as the answer is ‘any’, and you need a psychologist to list and characterise them. I am not and have never claimed to be a psychologist (amateur or otherwise), but I am aware that that people can be biased one way or another, e.g. by belief that a fuse can’t be directional, or belief that it can. They can be influenced by things they have picked up from others, whether someone in this forum proclaiming a difference, or a manufacturer’s claims - which again can be positive or negative. Then there is expectation bias which you have mentioned, and purchase justification. There may well be others - I am sure much can be found in appropriate scientific literature. But it really doesn’t matter one jot what particular psychological influence might exist, only that it is possible that the reality is that people can be influenced psychologically, whatever the cause and whatever name might be put on it. And again, if you qualified as a scientist yourself you will have, or certainly should have, been made aware of the possible influence of subconscious bias.