Massively underinvested in cables/accessories. Most probably such system will sound ok but not impressive at all.
Hi again 
ā¦
Absolutely Wrongā¦!!
A Good Source,.supplies music to the rest of the components in the chain.
A Worse Source,.delivers sound = disengaged and boring.
Do You Really Mean,.that you donāt have more experience to understand this yourself.
PS: I just upgraded my streamer the other day,.the system delivers a music experience on a COMPLETELY different level.
IB,.visit a good and experienced trader and he can easily demonstrate this for you.
3 Likes
Streamer from and to what? 
No idea, I havenāt heard Nova, nor any Focal speakers. I wouldnāt rule out top PMC speakers could possibly be satisfying fed by Nova PE,
The issue of intermodulation from RF goes back decades if not moreā¦ indeed when I was a humble undergraduate RF interference into sensitive video frame stores was a curse I had to contend with in my final year project.
The key issue with the NDS and NDX etc was the front end transport chipset and its limited bandwidth such that it really wasnāt optimised for internet use with higher throughputs and did bleed over into the rest of the electronics in terms of EMF and digital interference. This was later improved with a new architecture developed with a third party for the transport module as well as adopting LVDS.
I think the mid 90s was when RF intermods affecting audio quality in consumer hifi became more widely recognized outside specific engineering circles.
To the OPs question the key thing is the serialisation clock in the digital streamerā¦ click noise or phase noise here will pass down the line and likely couple into the DAC.
The later Naim products for example go to significantly to maximise click stability. Even the Naim DAC was good here, but has been improved in later products.
Itās worth remembering in a sample data stream, time is as important as the ābit perfectā sample value.
No, I was absolutely right! You used the word yourself - the system is a chain, and a good source can be constrained by inadequate speakers just as a good speaker can be constrained by an inadequate source. Balance is what is needed, no part of the chain limiting any other. But where for any reason that is not possible (which could be due to upgrade plans), then if the speakers are the better component the system will be least disengaging.
Please note I have not been talking about a bad source, but one that is reasonably adequate. I donāt disagree that a good source is great - but in my experience if you canāt have both, a good speaker makes the music more engaging and enjoyable than a good source. A significant factor for me is that I would not get as much enjoyment with much of the music to which I listen if bass is poor or lacking, and it takes at least a minimum level of speaker to be suitably capable at the bottom end.
I donāt rule out the possibility that if I used my first decent speakers (IMF TLS50) with a better sources than I have now I might enjoy listening to music just as much or more than I do with my current system. But not the highest possible quality source into much more limited speakers that are not full range or essentially neutral.
I would be very interested to learn what your system comprises, Peder - in particular what model of streamer or models of separate transport and DAC, and what speakers.
1 Like
@Innocent_Bystander You mentioned a couple things which I find interesting. First about source first not being the be all and end all. I personally feel that like so many things, the concept of source first has been misinterpreted by the masses and they have just run with it.
I do believe firmly in source first. But I donāt think it means what most other people think it means. To me, as the start of the chain, given that information lost cannot be retrieved later down the line, makes the source the most important part. But that doesnāt mean it should be the most expensive, nor does it mean it should be selected first. It means it has to be selected with immense care as the wrong source can render everything else moot. For the money, sources have gotten a lot better so you may get away with something that is less expensive than your other components. In terms of system building, while I think the source is the keystone of the system, I always choose speakers first. Simply because they have to work with your tastes and room and ultimately they set the tone for the whole system.
You also mentioned upgrading throwing a system out of balance. Iām glad Iām not the only who feels this. I sometimes make the rare box change in the first 12 months of a system but otherwise I do not believe in gradual upgrades at all. Do a whole balanced system in one go, and live with it for 15 or more years. Then do it again (only if you feel like it), rather than changing a box every 18 months. When you spend the money is different but not really the amount. And between those two points in time, you know you have a balanced system end to end which gradual upgrades almost never leave you in that state.
7 Likes
I depends on what you mean by balanced system. If you say balanced is when everything is level you end up with changing everything at once which is a big risk. You could also define balanced as musical and improve incrementally when the economy allow ā¦ in this case an error is easier to correct. This is no religion, more be aware of, to avoid losing interest in music listening. Always make sure the previous components limitations is masked by the ones coming after as much as possible.
And sometime you go wrong anyway. I was spoilt by Naim and nDAC and didnt understand the basic difference in performance between an r2r dac and the more common delta-sigma type - that one sent me out in spin for a while.
The Linn/Naim dealer around here at the time always interviewed me about my system and asked me to improve the setup of the system before making any new purchase 
2 Likes
Most things said on this thread is correct like.
Balanced system
Only as good as the weakest point
Source first, etc, etc.
If you dont start off with something good, then dont expect something good at the end.
But system balance is key.
1 Like
I am just laughing at the thought of source first and the number of people on here that must be enjoying their Innous statement running through their Amstrad amp and Wharfedale Diamonds.
1 Like
Hi ā¦
NO,.you was absolutely NOTā¦!!
This was a discussion that took place in the first part of the 80s,.THAT is many decades ago.
It divided supporters into āFlat earth vs Round earthā,.itās not a debate I intend to revisit 40 years later.
That you are stuck in the past I can only regret,.it makes me think of when the first Philips CD player was launchedā¦
It would be the answer to every audiophileās dream ofā¦āthe absolute best and purest soundā.
Think how wrong Philips was,.in the same way as you now 
.
Hi ā¦
Quite right,.installation and optimization of the existing system is absolutely the most importantā¦
This can take a veeery long time even for the most experienced.
1 Like
That is some accusation, but I hear incredible sounding music, have total engagement and full enjoyment every time I play, with nothing making me wish for more, no itch to constantly tweak or change things to try to find better as some people appear to do, apparently never satisfied. If being modern is lacking anything I have in terms of musical presentation and sound then I am proud not to be part of it! However it was only ever a part of the hifi world that became fanatical about source first, and some people who followed that doctrine have since discovered the importance of speakersā¦
To put any consideration of this in context, please identify your digital source (streamer or transport and DAC and your speakers, so I and others can understand your position and put context to your posts. Mine, like many other peopleās, can be found if you click my avatar, however to state it here: Source is Chord Dave DAC fed by a Mac Mini, headless and dedicated, running Audirvana rendering software (fully optimised, bypassing the computerās own sound hardware). My speakers are PMC MB2.
1 Like
Hi ā¦
Here you are wrong again,.you assume a lot from your own perspective.
I know many people in this hifi interest.
Already at the beginning of the 90s,.I started a Music and Hifi association that became known all over Sweden, and also Norway.
NOTE: This was built up before the internet and hifi forums were available.
I have also traveled around Sweden on assignment,.and installed and optimized music-systems.
NOWHERE,.have I come across the āSource Firstā views you express.
AND,.regarding the āquoteā I put in
from your writing.
Everyone I know has been very happy with their music-systemsā¦
BUT,.they, like me, also have an interest in striving forward in this interest.
A combination of both a great interest in music,.and a great interest in technology.
We should be grateful for that,. because otherwise forums like this wouldnāt exist .
Now,.itās facts regarding the hierarchy of a music-system we are talking about,.what someone participating in the ādebateā has for their own music system is irrelevant.
Having said that,.I already said several years ago (even to you) that because I use my own name as a ānicknameā,
both here and elsewhereā¦
And is relatively well-known within this interest in Sweden,.so I donāt post such information on the āinternetā.
You must now take and accept this.
BUT,.assume that I have extensive experience in installation, optimization and of real high-end systems.
Unless it has already become clear from my writings here over time .
Let me give you an example:
The legendary system from the 80s when we talk āSource First"ā¦
ā¢ Linn LP12
ā¢ Naim Nait
ā¢ Linn Kan
Which is still celebrated and sought after.
Do you think it would have become as legendary if we replaced Linnās LP12 with the Rega 3 of the time (which was good in the 80s, see picture below).
ā¢ OR,.if we had Rega 3 and also replaced Linn Kan with Linn Isobarik (according to your stated philosophy).
Yes,.I think few would have found such a music-system to be musically engagingā¦
Maybe you,.but hardly many more.
Since a balance is important to achieve,.I think most people understand thatā¦
BUT,.the music-system will never be better musically than its source.
As Simply As Thatā¦!!
Turntables like the Garrad 301 had already been around for years before the LP12 was let loose. These seem now to be very highly praised and sought after. So that being the case, why did the LP12 cause such a stir, when excellent turntables were already around? The answer is surely Linnās marketing and the fact that the company was headed by a very astute and charismatic business man who knew how to promote his products to best effect, ie. very loudly and with much fanfare. Garrard just quietly got on with the job of making excellent turntables without trying to take over the world.
A more capable source will of course give better results. So will better speakers. Both are capable of doing things that the other canāt. But once one has a capable source, if one wants realism, ie. to create a credible illusion of being in front of live music being played, then the most important thing is to obtain large and capable speakers. There simply is no other way.
1 Like
As do you from yours!!
As was my brother-in-law with his source-first (LP22/Ittok) system in the 1980s, until he heard my THorens TD150/Rega arm system playing through IMF transmission line speakers when he became disappointed with his system,
Nor can it ever be better than its speakers! It is an absolute fact that the output from any system cannot be better than the capability of the weakest link in the chain. If, for example, the speakers roll off the bass, that part of the music will be missing or substantially diminished. If they are highly coloured or distort, the music will be coloured of distorted. To you that might be musical. To me it isnāt.
Ideally of course one would have the best possible source and the best possible speakers for our taste in sound presentation, with an amp that is completely transparent and gets the best out of the speakers. In oractice we have to make choices.
If you wonāt say what components you have (and I understand why, though I disagree with your view if relevance - I think it is very relevant when embroiled in this type of discussion), perhaps you would state what speaker or choice of speakers you would like to have if your source was the very be if you could get it, and money was no object?
1 Like
Keep the fight Peder! You are the sword hifi fighter.
2 Likes
@Innocent_Bystander
Hi ā¦
There is no point in continuing this conversation.
I donāt have the time to sit and write long endless answers.
You donāt understand what Iām talking about,.even when I give examplesā¦
Which is strange,.as Iāve never experienced it before.
Itās the same with the endless dialogues about Tune-Dem Iāve had with you over the years,.you donāt understand what Iām talking about and can draw relevant conclusions from it.
You are on a forum and write a lot,.a forum based on Julianās (Naim) and Ivorās (Linn) philosophy, which was created during the time they collaborated.
As we can summarize in āSource Firstā and āFlat Earthā.
You are a āRound Earthā guy,.nothing wrong with that.
BUT,.if you donāt understand my message in the dialogue I just had with you, I can do no more.
I can conclude by saying that I also used a Mac Mini as a source as you 
,.many years ago.
It was the best version for that purpose,.a 2012 Mac Mini.
I took out the internal power supply and the internal fanā¦
The internal power supply was replaced with an external power supply.
The fan was then not needed.
This Mac Mini was also specially adapted by one of Swedenās more famous hifi designers.
It played well at its level many many years ago,.but was replaced by a ārealā streamer that delivered a completely different musical presentation.
This ārealā streamer has since been upgraded three timesā¦
And the streamer that now plays in my music-system today is several levels better than my old Mac Mini.
Incidentally,.I still have my old Mac Mini in a box somewhere.
Now Iām going to do something else, have a nice evening ā¦
2 Likes
Can you just say, without the risk of showing your real identity, which I understand, just if your streamer is a Lejonkou one. Because itās made in Sweden and has good reputation.
3 Likes
ā¦