Is the Klimax Kontrol a discontinued product? It is a pity that Linn made that decision? I’ve been wondering why?
Reading the comments here and several points become apparent to me.
First off the inference, when it comes to the NAIM pre and power amp, is that the pre-amp is changing the sound one way and then the power amp changes it back again. The nett result is a combination which is better than the parts. So taking out the pre-amp changes the music for the worse.
Also does the streamer have a high enough signal to directly drive the power amp? So is the pre-amp acting as an amplifier or an active attenuator. Perhaps the output stage of the streamer really isn’t up to the job and the pre-amp is amplifying the signal. I don’t know about the NDX2 but the older NDX was c. 2Vrms output maximum. That’s really quite low. As an example the Bartok allows you to set the output signal with 2V as the default and 6V as the maximum. I tried it on the default 2V direct into the power amp and you really had to crank the volume up to get a normal listening level. Driving the output of the streamer at c. maximum all the time is, and was in my case, detrimental to the sound quality. The output of the NDX2 is probably too low to give a proper dynamic range into the power amp. without having to over tax itself.
The final point is the thorny subject of digital vs analogue volume control. I think the universal consensus is that a fully analogue volume control is better since bit depth can be compromised with a digital volume stage.
My conclusion then over the question do you need a pre-amp is a sum-up of the issues raised above.
To consider removing the pre-amp from the system relies upon
a) The output signal from the streamer being high enough to drive the power amp without over taxing it’s self and given the required range.
b) The colouration produced by the streamer compliments that present in the power amp. In the case of NAIM products it appears that you need both elements, pre and power, to give the best ‘sound’.
c) The volume stage of the streamer doesn’t change the quality of the output for the worse: Digital vs analogue volume.
If all three points are satisfactorily answered, only then is removing the pre-amp a viable option.
Now I am thinking over the Linn design decision of removing the pre-amp - I think the Space Optimisation is the KEY word from what Linn has done here - The signal processing is an inherent part of Linn’s DSM system and would not be applicable in analogue preamplification (because it is deployed through the digital signal path more or less up to the crossover in the speakers). The more important thing is the removal of the preamplifier from the signal path.
So for the Lin users who prefer the KK in the signal path are the ones who do not use or take advantages of the Linn SO?
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With Naim, I think a pre really is necessary except with the 272. With other manufacturers, it depends on their design objectives and implementation. I run my Vega G2 streamer straight into active ATCs and have no issues with achieving adequate volume, rather the opposite. But, it does have a fully analogue (class A) output stage with a volume control using a relay-controlled resistor ladder. I think it sounds magnificent, but I do know of others who take the output through a preamp. That’s what I would probably do if I were using a Naim power amp.
Roger
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I, for one, no longer use SO. I have found that getting my loudspeakers (Akubariks) in the very best position results in the best music. SO seems to rob music of it’s realism.
OK, so that makes sense as to why you prefer the KK to the KDSM, even your amps are the Solos.
PS: SOv2 is a significant step-up from SOv1 from what I gather - SOv1 is un-usable for > 90% of Linn users because it is almost impossible to configure it correctly, unless you are the ones who designed the SO!!! If it is configured correctly for your env, it will transform your system.
To clarify, I do not use the SO even I own a Linn ADSM because I would not be bothered as my wife uses it for some kind of background music, but I heard the differences at my Linn dealer’s demo, it is an eye opener, to say the least.
Good Evening All,
Well the cable has arrived from David at Flashback. The hum I was experiencing was caused by still having the Akurate DS connected to the pre-amplifier…
I have listened to a number of tracks and, as logic would dictate, having removed ‘obstructions’ from the signal path, things are certainly no worse.
My system is at a pretty revealing level so the current conclusion is that the NAC52 c/w Supercap is serving no useful purpose in my system.
I kind of suspected this would be the case so is expectation bias at play?
Regards
Richard
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Hi Linesreg, do you feel the same even at very low volume?
I don’t listen to anything at low volume because I don’t need to nor understand why I would want to. I’m fortunate in that respect.
Regards
Richard
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I didn’t respond in this thread earlier because I thought it was the older one rumbling on (is preamp thing of the past).
The answer to the question must depend on the streamer, and whether it is capable of driving a power amp. I.e:
- Is the streamer stable into the power amp’s input impedance and capable of providing sufficient drive current?
- If the power amp may be unstable when fed with high ultrasonic frequencies (and that may be the case with Naim power amps, amongst others), does it have an appropriate high frequency cut-off.
- Does it have a volume control that doesn’t degrade audio performance, and doesn’t risk inadvertent switching to full volume, as some app-controlled software VCs can?
And there is a 4th question of significance:
- Does whatever the preamp does in modifying the sound provide something you would miss (famously the “Naim Sound” perhaps)? (Any inserted electronics will impart its own signature, and none can pass the signal completely unchanged, though whether you would necessarily notice any change is uncertain.)
If the answers to 1)-3) are yes the answer is that a preamp is not necessary. If the answer to 4) is also yes than you may prefer to have whatever preamp that may be, though direct would be the cleaner signal.
Although not relevant to the OP, my own experience may be of interest to others pondering the same question: I used to use a Chord Hugo (mk 1) direct into a power amp (Musical Fidelity P270 and was very happy with it, to me sounding slightly better than through the preamp I used to use (Musical Fidelity The Preamp 2a) When I replaced Hugo with Chord Dave I found the same. And Chord Dave into Bryston 4B sst2 power amp ditto. I don’t use direct now, but still without preamp, using Dave to drive a digital active crossover feeding Bryston power amps.
I don’t recall the full spec of Hugo, but Dave is unconditionally stable into loads that include the impedance range of all power amps (including Naim), and can easily source the current needed by all, and has a switchable ultrasonic filter, so absolutely no risk driving any power amp.
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Innocent_Bystander,
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Answering your points in turn:-
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I’m not sure that Linn readily publish details of the DS/3 output capability but there was no evidence of any issue yesterday evening. The DS/3 output is being fed via the Supercap to the SNAXO which is providing the output signal to the 6 amplifiers.
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I don’t know whether the DS/3 has any such high frequency filtering, again the Linn site doesn’t appear to address this issue.
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Currently the DVC is limited to 80% which seems to be the default. I haven’t ‘defeated’ it yet as it was comfortably loud (for my taste) at this setting. There was no obvious immediate difference in SQ although the bass appeared better defined.
I can’t speak for the possible effect of some spurious signal causing the DVC to go to 100%.
I didn’t miss the presence of the NAC52 at all yesterday evening.
I need to do some more comparative listening.
I know companies such as Naim may not want to hear this but they must be aware that the world is a changing place.
Once upon a time I kind of wanted a NAT01 but why would anybody bother with a conventional FM tuner nowadays?
The CD is all but dead save perhaps for the ‘rarer’ recordings.
For me all the sources I need come though the streamer so a pre-amplifier is serving no useful function I can see (or hear).
Regards
Richard
Yes, if you have any analogue sources you need a preamp - I have kept mine for that purpose, though not normally connected connected as I don’t use often, just connecting in when needed. As I use a DAC that has alternative switchable inputs, I think I’ll get an ADV and feed the analogue source into the DAC, so removing that hassle, when I’ll sell the pre.
I would be surprised if any source device was not unconditionally stable these days… otherwise it could break into oscillation and potentially damage connected equipment or itself.
The HF filter on DAVE is more about DAC reconstruction filter tailoring rather than anything else I seem to remember, and I don’t remember anywhere where it’s parameters were defined… I think it was more to suite use taste than anything else.
The coupling between NAC and NAP is I believe more about the impedance characteristic matching … remember because we are talking impedance and not resistance, the output and input impedance will vary for given frequencies… so you need to picture a curve of impedance vs frequency … it’s not a case of matching static numbers… hence why matching preamps with amps can be really important for optimum performance for some designs… the whole point of the preamp is to make consistent and optimise this impedance curve for different sources and attenuation impedance curves.
With Naim for example the amp is designed to consist of these two key elements working together.
Sure you can put your own impedance curve into your NAP, but you can’t be certain that your amp will be running in its optimum way… however you might prefer the sound of your NAP this way as opposed to the sound the original designers wanted from the NAP, and clearly you are free to do as you wish here.
have I got this right that you could run a NDX2 straight into a 250DR or 300 power amp?
To sum up: No, not really.
The variable output is there to comply with Airplay2 and not a substitute for a proper pre-amp.
It’s not something recommended by Naim because overall performance would be impaired without a proper pre-amp.
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It will work perfectly well and will not damage anything. You will need to get a suitable cable. Just turn on the variable volume setting.
As Richard says, this is not Naim’s intended way of doing things. So you would need to assess the sound quality for yourself.
Richard - I hear what you say but I have to say that, in my case, the SQ didn’t appear to have suffered and, IMHO, it remains logical that cutting out the middleman is unlikely to be a backward move.
Regards
Richard
That logic doesn’t stack up, as discussed above.
There are dozens of examples of how adding another box makes a system sound worse and dozens where it makes it sound much better.
Add to that failed logic, the Fact that a nac and nap are specifically designed to work as two halves of one amp.
As Julian once wrote on this subject on the original forum, sometimes less is more, but other times it’s just less.
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