Is Naim missing something in the long run?

[Simon-in-Suffolk]

“Filters have fairly extreme current requirements. The minute you take the load off the internal supplies and you power that separately, you make a worthwhile improvement. People assume that the next DAC technology will make a huge improvement, but that’s not necessarily true—in some ways it’s the least important part of a CD player. Things like the environment in which the analog stage is working can be more important than the DAC you’re using

A huge amount a has been discovered since then on how how the brain decodes sound, and therefore how abstractions like music are communicated… and in parallel the pace of technology development has been immense allowing more accurate methods to be adopted… but yes the ways of implementing the new approaches need to learned and not all implementation of new technology will get it right… clearly… it’s just the gamut has been widened.

Sure the analogue amplifier, current to voltage conversion and analogue low pass filter stages are important yes, but the discrete to continuous signal conversion and how it is implemented is essential for optimum communication (which I think is the point you are referring to)…it is a lossy imperfect process … and those imperfections have started to narrow slightly in recent years through the advent of new technology enabling different reconstruction techniques that simply were not practical or possible years ago.

[feeling_zen]

Nothing wrong with that all, but one has to realise older technology is ultimately less capable … and so the best performances overall will be had with more recent developments.
I guess in the automotive world it’s like the difference between driving a 1964 Aston Martin DB4 and a 2019 DB11, both fantastic cars to look at and drive, but the latter clearly more capable.

Not really. Because the new streamers are new products even if the architecture is old. It is more like comparing a brand new sports car that has a v8 engine with a sports car that has an electric drive chain. The v8 design has been around forever, but the implementation keeps getting updated by everything around it. We all know that the days for gas v8s are numbered but they still deliver for the time being in brand new cars. Your analogy is more like comparing a 1994 Linn Numerik with Klimax DSM

[Analogmusic]

yes indeed technology allows improvements…

in a Chord DAC the noise shapers run at 104 MHZ (the last stage of their complex filter upsamples to 2048FS) , apparently 20 times faster than the competition…

they claim that noise at 1 MHZ is 1000 times lower than other DACs… so considerably less noise at the DAC output stage.

Which apparently allows Chord to use very benign and simple analog filters… No 7 pole filter powered by a Hicap is now needed by Chord designs…

These are all just numbers, but the results in the Hugo family, Mojo and Dave DACs are clearly audible in how natural the music sounds.

The FIR filter in a Chord DAC is more mathematically complex than the simple IIR filters used by almost everyone else… IIR per the white paper of NDAC claims to just inserts zero in the interpolation (for the data between the samples). The Chord filters do actually calculate an interpolated value… and this to my ears is audible.

Naim do a lot of work with their 7 pole analog filter to compensate and the also their output stage is very fast (discrete Naim designed) to deal with the output of the DAC…

So I do agree with your point, new technology is allowing reconstruction techniques than even RW himself could not implement 30 years ago.

[Simon-in-Suffolk]

Because the new streamers are new products even if the architecture is old.

Not really. I was comparing DACs… the new streamers have hugely improved streaming transports and isolation leveraging their new streaming architecture, in fact it’s one of the main areas of innovation in my opinion… that is why I use my new streamer to feed my DAC… the donee streamers in digital output mode or superb in my opinion.
The internal DAC side is based on an optimised version of the architecture that was first developed with the NDAC.

[Simon-in-Suffolk]

Naim do a lot of work with their 7 pole analog filter to compensate and the also their output stage is very fast (discrete Naim designed) to deal with the output of the DAC…

Ali like what… as far as I understand the code for the oversampler and low pass digital filter has been unchanged or largely unchanged since the NDAC when it first appeared. The low pass filter is only a few lines of code… that is the advantage of using assembly code type constructs, the hard work is conducted within the Analog Devices SHARC processor. That is where the filter implementation type is chosen so as to sound subjectively the most appealing with that particular architecture . The filter is an IIR Butterworth filter with added steepness or poles, which sharpens the cutoff response and when coupled with oversampling helps minimise the phase distortion (smearing) in the audio pass band that would otherwise be more prominent with the chosen IIR implementation.

[Analogmusic]

Sorry I meant Naim go to a lot of effort in making it possible that 7 pole analog filter can be powered with the XPSDR, PS555DR for supplying Hi-current to the analog output stages of premium Naim sources.

[Bluesfan]

Hi StoogeMoe,
If you do a search for a thread called:
Music Streaming - it’s hard to find the right time
you will find one person’s experiences of the DCS and ND555 streamers versus a couple of Chord dacs.

Hope it helps, BF

[StoogeMoe]

Thanks Bluesfan. I’ve seen that thread before but didn’t read it. Now I may be more interested. I will check it out.

[anon35279323]

A question. I understand it’s probably impossible to answer but do you think it would be a possibility that Naim can and will propose an upgrade of “hardware” on the ND555 sometimes in the future? Similar with the DR upgrade so the ND555 and maybe the other streamers on the new platform can get new “hardware technologies” which will come one day.
Or will it be too complicated and consequently too expensive to propose that?

[ChrisSU]

The streamers all have SPDIF outputs. Perhaps the upgrade will be NDAC2…

[Bluesfan]

With the new generation of streamers, Naim seems to have really upgraded the front streaming section, retained existing/old dac technology in the middle, while ensuring lovely analogue output electronics at the back.

Given how good Linn, DCS, MSB and Chord ( to name a few) are these days, it would seem logical for Naim to focus on the middle section, i.e. the dac + reconstruction filters in its next generation, potentially starting with a successor to the dac.

On the other hand, the company may do something completely different!

Best regards, BF

[jan]

If you are using Exakt then you can only use Space Optimisation V1 at the moment. V2 has more options and was a big upgrade for me over V1 and does exactly what I describe in my lounge.

Oh, didnt know about SO V2!!

Exakt … I just had it on loan for a short while. I like the idea and if they continue tweak it I am certain they will get there.

I hadnt checked out Linn since the early 90’s and was very impressed by the Klimax Twin amp and the Klimax DSM and they are still on my list even with digital volume.

But I aso thought I would never accept amps with SMPS and right now I am demoing a second SMPS amp after Linn. This one from Lejoklou - he use two SMPS in some kind of push-pull to get noise down. Just 40W. And even the preamp is two small/light mono boxes.

Lejonklou has done some listening tests on Linn speaker cable lengh on K200/K400 … 2m48cm. … going shorter makes sound more aggressive and forward … going above 2m50 makes the sound increasingly passive and laidback.

[jan]

On the other hand, the company may do something completely different!

This week heard a real multibit/r2r type DAC for the first time. A Shiit Yggdrasil.

It made me really doubt the delta-sigma DAC type.

I have never heard RedBook rips sound so fresh, alive and musical. According to the owner there is a waiting list to buy one. An ND5 XS2 + Shiit would cost about the same as a bare NDX2.

[Allante93]

Field Programmable Gate Arrays (FPGAs) are wonderful devices IMO. With an off-the-shelf application-specific integrated circuit (ASIC) such as a DAC chip you are limited to what the manufacturers allow you to do. With FPGAs you have a blank canvas.

I worked with FPGAs for a number of years, not in the audio field, and you can effectively make it do what you want and only what you want.

I figured electronics was your field of expertise.

I really appreciate your style, you realize that your audience may not be familiar with all the technical acronyms. I had to look up IIRC! LOL☺

The way I see it, no company or individual can excel in all areas: Reminds me of a couple of my favorite maxims: Jack of all trades and master of none; It’s better to go deep with few things and master them, rather be an dilettante of many.

Of course, I prefer da latter.

Linn ~ TTs - LP 12

Naim ~ Amps - 250/ Supernait 2 (2014)

Chord ~ Dacs ? - Dave Blu 2/ M-Scaler

Chord ~ ICs & SC ~ Music

Well, Just my two cents!

When its all said done, I would imagine Naim & Chord both produce excellent products resulting in a different sound!

Keep in mind, different does not imply deficient.

Choice is the engaging factor!

If you like it, I love it!

[Allante93]

The streamers all have SPDIF outputs. Perhaps the upgrade will be NDAC2…

Don’t you think for one second, that Naim isn’t listening! You guys asked for a ND555, you got it!

I would love to A-B an NDS & ND555 and switch the labels! Just joking!!!

[Bluesfan]

Indeed, well worth seeking out Schiit, Holo Audio Spring 2, MSB and Totaldac if you like what these multibit R2R dacs do (I like it a LOT!)

[TiberioMagadino]

but I’d sooner have a Tesla with auto pilot … driving is so last century

[Simon-in-Suffolk]

I think with almost certainty one can say that won’t happen…

[davidhendon]

As the ND555 has only been released for about a year, I think you could be certain that no-one is thinking about future hardware upgrades for that unit yet. But I doubt it would ever happen.

The ND555 is as good as Naim could make it, not just as good as they could get with certain hardware.

Best

David

[Allante93]

Chord Electronics exploits FPGAs to great effect. They are not the only ones though.

Linn only uses FPGA for its Digital Sound Processing (DSP) which includes Space Optimisation. It means I can arrange furniture in my odd shaped lounge in a domestically acceptable way without compromising musical enjoyment. Linn uses a DAC chip from Asahi Kasei Microsystem (AKM AK4497) with its own customisations at the heart of its x DAC, The combination of FPGA and customised AK4497 sounds great to me.

{"LINN did not just change the DAC chip, but they adopted a completely new architecture called, “KATALYST.” What it comes down to is that LINN has refreshed the whole DAC section of the design. In addition, it is noteworthy that, “KATALYST,” is equipped with two Asahi Kasei Microdevices’s, (AKM), most advanced flagship DACs, “AK4497,” for an independent right and left channel. …

This is not the first time that AKM’s DAC chip was installed in high-end audio equipment, but when I heard the first report, I could not hide surprises. “Finally, LINN adopts AKM’s chip.” And further surprising is the sound of the, “KLIMAX DS/3,” which adopted this chip……

The sound of, “KLIMAX DS/3,” has reached the emotional sound quality that music lover adore, and now come to expect in a network player. The new “KLIMAX DS” had a biggest improvement in sound quality comparing among updates done two times so far……

This time, we have Mr. Gilad Tiefenbrun, the President of LINN and Mr. Keith Robertson, the Chief Technology Officer of LINN from the United Kingdom visiting Japan".

Not being all that tech savvy, It was difficult to regurgitate the chips & bits!

Give it a read, in your free time:

https://www.akm.com/akm/en/product/featured/audiomarketvoices/linn/interview/

PS. I wonder what other companies are utilizing Japan’s AKM???