They’re not, at least not this latest generation of decks. I’m less familiar with the older ones from the 80’s to 2010.
Older 1200 is nothing like the current GR/G even MK7.
Another thing that strikes me about the LP12, which I’ll just get off my chest before I shut up and go away, is that it is a very bad thing that these so-called set-up gurus exist. Why? Because it implies to me that set-up is therefore far from a matter of simply following a standard procedure. If it were then everybody, so long as they are competent, should be able to optimally set-up an LP12. This apparently is not the case, with one well known guru travelling the world to set-up customers’ LP12’s and giving them a certain special magic.
The clear implication is that when you purchase an LP12 the performnace will ultimately be determined not by the deck itself but by the competence/dedication/experience of the individual setting it up. I would wager that if one were to buy 10 identical LP12’s from different dealers around the country there would be significamt performance differences. Hopefully they would all sound pretty good, but one or two would likely sound exceptionally good. Hardly an ideal situation considering the expense involved, and why I would never buy one again.
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We may be getting quite along way from the question ‘Is RP10 any good’, to which the simple answer is surely ‘Yes’.
FWIW, it is hard to blame this dealer or that because someone else calls them a guru, and wishing them all out of existence may not be the answer.
It is possible to mess up the set-up of an LP12, I am sure, but it isn’t easy. To take your example of 10 identical decks bought new from 10 sensible dealers, I would strongly suspect that no-one would hear a difference at first. After no more than a decade or two, or a few house moves, it might become apparent that some had hung onto their original set-up a bit better than the others.
To me, that’s a lot less variability than you would get between 2 new Ferraris (or perhaps even 2 new washing Miele machines), so I am not sure why it would be a reason never again to own an LP12.
And none of that changes the answer than an RP10 is very good.
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In that respect they are more like an musical instrument than consumer electronics. Guitars are like that in my experience - pick up any 10 strats off a guitar shop wall and a couple will be dogs, six or seven will be ok and a couple will be magnificent sounding and a good tech can turn a mediocre instrument into something sublime.
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As ever, don’t believe everything you read. There are many people who are very well versed in setting up LP12s.
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Hi Nick,
Firstly yes I agree I am not answering the OP’s question here and as such it is a diversion. However it could be argued that it is adding a little context - the RP10 cannot be considered in isolation. Anyway - whatever.
Don’t misunderstand me. I’m not blaming any dealer for being a guru, and I’m certainly not wishing them out of existence. If I owned an LP12 I would be very glad to have access to them. What I was trying to illustrate is that the very fact that there are such individuals, people that are able to fettle an LP12 so that it performs above and beyond as it were, means to me that the LP12 is a device that is worryingly dependant upon the ability of the person performing the set-up.
Does it matter? Well IMO yes, very much so. If I were spending that kind of money I would be very concerned indeed that I was getting the correct performance that I have paid for. Not just a satisfactory performance but the best that can be achieved. I think that is not unreasonable and I would absolutely demand it. Would I get it though? Probably not - unless my deck was fettled by a known guru. This is obviously a fact or those people simply would not exist.
So is this a reason not to buy an LP12? For me absolutely yes. I’m not paying good money to get second best.
Maybe most LP12 owners are happy so long as their LP12 sounds good to them and they don’t worry that if only Mr.X or Mr.Y were to fettle them they could sound a whole lot better. I could never accept that. I want the best for my money.
And, I would guess, as many who are mediocre. None of this would be of any consequence if the LP12 were not so sensitive to set-up. At the end of the day your LP12 will only sound as good as the person setting it up is able to achieve. Of course you won’t necessarily know if your LP12 is not performing optimally unless it is obviously wrong. So it could be argued that it doesn’t really matter. Fair enough. To me though, it does. Which is why I would never buy one again.
Hi @anon33182107 - I think my only disagreement with any of that is that I don’t believe that any dealers are able to do a normal service on an LP12 with added Woo and so deliver something extra. If I did, I’d have great sympathy with your conclusion. However, I think it is a complete myth.
Where added skill/ knowledge may well be relevant is on upgrade advice and rebuilds. One can get a great value turntable by taking an ancient LP12 and judiciously adding very second-hand parts to it. However, there is a short list of dealers that I would ask to do that for me.
I may be wrong of course, but if I understand your position you would not be the first person put off LP12s not by the turntable but by the enthusiasm of some of its supporters.
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You may well be right Nick. I’m only going by the various reports here and elsewhere. The individuals mentioned certainly exist but whether they are indeed capable of achieving anything special is another question. It seems from what is written that they are - but who really knows? Of course if they can’t then the whole situation is different entirely.
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This is one of the reasons I didn’t get an LP12 again. With the Rega, it’s a case of getting it out of the box, adding the platter, putting on the counterweight, balancing the arm, setting tracking weight and bias and it’s good to go. No hands of God required to get peak performance. It just works.
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This is the pinnacle congrats.
By the way I auditioned a lp12 with funk firm modification and it was way better than rega p10.
Vertere plays in another league
I had a LP12 since 1986 and recently in all that time of owning and using it, it has been a great bit of kit.
Never needed to fettled with. It’s had some services and upgrades over time with a number of dealers. The dealer sets it up, transport it home, put the outer platter and counterweight back on. Job done and listening time here we come.
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Interesting journey. The fact that you had 3 dealers work on the deck does suggest it wasn’t setup doesn’t it. There will always be people that rush a job and/or don’t care that much about their work but you’d expect at least one of them to have done a decent enough job. For example, my dealer insists I leave the deck with him to give the suspension time to settle. This does double up the journeys but I’d rather that and know it’s gonna still sound good in a few years.
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It’s a fair point. The guru going around the World was for a few reasons, some positive (i.e. travel), some less so. But your point is definitely a valid one and I’m sure a reason that some folks prefer the likes of Rega.
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It’s a matter of taste also. I heard recently the Vertere MG1 with its cart and pricey FM Acoustics phono. I prefer the more direct and lively sound of my P10. Vertere, like Linn, are the entry door for infinite and continuous upgrades temptations.
At least with my P10, nothing to upgrade or be tempted to upgrade.
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To be fair to the dealers involved I think they all put a fair bit of effort into trying to sort things out and two of them were perhaps going above and beyond the call of duty seen as I didn’t buy the deck from them. I knew them all and they were very helpful guys. In the end though none of that solved my problem.
Interesting and perhaps of some significance, although it’s only just occurred to me as I’ve been revisiting the whole thing here, is the following. When I upgraded the arm/cartridge from the LVX/K9 to Ittok/Asaka I was left very disappointed. I felt that the LVX/K9 gave a far superior performance and that the Ittok/Asaka sounded slow, bloated and tuneless in comparison. Now that clearly shouldn’t have happened. The Ittok/Asaka should have been a huge step forwards. The more I think of it the more I’m convinced that my particular LP12 was just a complete dud that never performed satisfactorily, even when newly set-up.
Were I in that situation now I would insist on the whole thing being returned to Linn for replacement or my money back. For some reason I just accepted it back then as being ‘one of those things’ and just battled on. Very silly. Ah well, we live and learn and I’m now much older and wiser. Oh for the benefit of hindsight…
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I agree with you, debating about personal tastes is a nonsense because is something personal. What I wrote is the expression of my tastes, I prefer a linnn/vertere full blood midrange than rega sense of reality but I totally understand that for others it will be the opposite. To me it remains true that Thales, tw acustic and vertere are in another class, they are hi end
They are first much more expensive. So yes, in another price class.
I had an SME 20/2 with SME V for 15 years. 3 times more expensive vs the Rega P10. Build quality was indeed exceptional, and the P10 looks more like a toy vs it. However I have no regret having sold it. The P10 is faster, quicker and more enjoyable with my music ( jazz rock from the 70’s mainly).
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I know what you mean FR. I listened to Vertere’s system with MG-1, FM Acoustics and PMC FACT12 speakers a few years ago and thought it represented a perfect example of what I didn’t want to have to listen through! I’ve since heard an MG-1 sounding frankly sublime and @PeterR 's FACT12s sounding awesomely good.
I still like the P10 though. Rega - they’re proper audio engineers.
Best regards, BF
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