Going for separates at second hand prices is a great option, but for me there was a critical difference in the sound that made the Supernait an easy choice.
The 202/200 combo had a curiously clinical sound to my ears, whereas the SN3 has a more organic, almost analog character that I prefer. The 202/200 sounded more accurate and open in a way, but didn’t seem to capture the feeling of the music, which I prioritize. If I had to describe it in terms of frequency response, I’d say the SN is a bit more mid & bass forward, whereas the 202/200 sounds more flat / linear. Lastly, service for these amps is worth taking into account for overall price.
In general, the SN2 & 3 are amazing value for money, even at MSRP. If you can find a SN2 used, I can’t imagine anyone would be disappointed, assuming a good source. They will drive nearly any speaker to silly levels with outstanding control and musicality. I’ve found the SN3 + ND5XS2 has brought me back to listening to music so much more vs the UnitiStar I had previously ( and the star was damn good ). In HiFi terms, the SN is a bit of a sweet spot IMO.
Thank you @edanmars for your articulate summaries of your demos, I consider them very useful for this forum and they also mirror my own impressions from the comparisons involved.
That your preferences are then sometimes different to mine is perfectly fine. Each of us have to follow our own ears, budget, room, system, but it really helps to have these descriptions.
Good to hear you are happy with the SN3 / ND5 XS2 combo! Will be looking forward to reading what you’ll find if you would demo to upgrade the source of that system.
@edanmars Your description of the SN3 and ND5XS2 is what I have found too. At first I was wanting more highs, but now my system sounds very organic. Took a lot of break in time. I have not compared my system to other Naim choices.
My next step will be adding Focal vs Utopia headphones going into my SN3.
@Jaybar interesting to hear you found the ND5XS needed a lot of break in time -when I first connected my system from new I thought I’d made a mistake… LOTS of detail but a weirdly strident, hot high end, to the point I was starting to question my purchase.
I left the system playing radio on low for a week while I was away for Christmas and the sound even after just a few days was much closer to what I heard in the demo: highs were back in balance, everything sounded better settled in.
Now, after 3 weeks of playing, I’m feeling like the sound is pretty much fully run in, but I’m curious to hear what others have heard in terms of run in for streamers, as well as amps, etc.
@edanmars I can only speak for myself. For the SN3 and ND5XS2 I needed about 400 hours. However there were more factors. I also had a Highcap DR, Chord Shawline interconnects,Spendor A4 speakers and Naim CDP (5SI) and Isotek power conditioner. Basically the whole system was new except the Rega P9 TT. The combination could have accounted for the length of time.
After spending some time on the Nait 50 thread, I’m wondering if I should ad that to my list. Compared to the sugden seems a bit lateral to go down to 25 amps. But maybe better synergy with Neat SX2? Still thinking a XS3 or SN2/3 are what I’m looking for, but people really seem to love that little box! I like its looks!
Enough inputs and outputs, yes. I just have my chord dac and my tt (that would run from my preamp as line level for now since I use a LOMC) But, driving speakers -not so sure. Neat Motive SX2. @Gigantor gave a really awesome break down of what my speakers require (thanks so much for all that research!) and came down to 25-100 watts. So I guess the Nait would be at the low end of that. My Sugden has 30, but it’s Class A. Regarding Class A on the Sugden, I’ve heard differing versions ranging from the Class A 30w are really more, to when it drops to lower Ohms it’s really low watts, and is really better for higher speakers. Some of why I started looking at Naim though, was definitely to get some more power into my Neats, which perhaps isn’t the Nait 50.
Even a Nait 2 with 18 watts will happily drive a pair of Motive SX2, and during shows Neat themselves use a Nait 2 with the Ekstra speakers.
Bob Surgeoner of Neat in general recommends XS-level and lesser power with the Motive and Iota ranges, and OC and NC for all the higher ranges.
Then there is the odd-ball specific combination like the Nait 2 & Ekstra, and there is a thread here “Speakers for Nait 50” where the Neat Petite Classic seem to be a hit.
The famous “Naim watts” are really a thing, definitely when combined with Neat (and Kudos, who once worked at Neat before going at it alone).
I think if you buy a used sn3 you will have an easier time selling it than a used xs3. I have a sn3 i listened to xs3 and with my speakers (wilson tunetot) it just gave me more depth, attack. Could hear more of what the ndx2 brings to the table.
Re. Sufficient power, how big is your room? Small speakers small amp, small space… big space, big amp, etc…
One thing I will say, adding power ( or at least a larger power supply ) does seem to have a curious effect on the sound insofar as it seems to add a certain ‘swagger’, added ease, better control, blah blah… while you may not need the added power, bigger amps do seem to add a dimension of control that’s hard to quantify.
I recalled having a brief encounter with the Sugden A21 paired with Quad bookshelves speakers (it’s either the Quad 11 or 12) at a dealer’s small listening room. The combo had a very sweet sound coupled with the lushness and clarity the Sugden is known for. The bass was also articulate and tuneful. It might be the sound you are seeking if you can find a used pair.
I’m really loving the Supernait 3 so far! I don’t have the Sugden to compare it to right now, but so far it’s really good. I just got some Kudos KS-1 and that’s really made it start to shine! I was waiting on the Kudos order to come in, so in the meantime ran it with Blue Jeans Belden speaker cable. At first, I thought maybe this Supernait 3 isn’t all that- but now I realize the Blue Jeans cable were really limiting it. With the Kudos KS-1 it really sounds incredible! I only got 3M runs, hopefully that’s still OK, after I ordered it I realized the Naim 3.5m rec. Anyways, sounds so good right now, it must be working OK at that length!
Technically mine are probably an inch or two short of 3M cause I had to cut off the termination to put the Naim plugs on. I wanted to do it the right Naim way lol! (should have ordered them un-terminated but oh well) I did a real nice solder job on the Naim plugs and it feels good to have those neat little plugs back there.
The specs for speaker cables does not apply to NAP 250 DR and onwards so I am skeptikal it applies to the Supernait, it being an even more recent version of a Naim amplifier.
What are you sceptical of?
The Nait 50 instructions for example recommend NACA5 for optimum performance and advise against sub 2 metre lengths and recommends l 20metres as the maximum length. Though this very recent design doesn’t mandate a minimum length of NACA5 to avoid instability… just a minimum and maximum for optimum performance, which from an engineering design perspective is totally understandable
Yes of course they recommend their own speaker cable still but Steve Sells has said that the newer amplifiers have a different construction. This construction is the same as other amplifiers in regard to tolerance for speaker cable. The newer amplifiers can use any speaker cable. Perhaps this isn’t the case with the Nait 50 or the Supernait. He talked about the NAP 250.
Edit: I see now I missed an important word in my first post. I should have been clearer. I meant it might be true for the Supernait too, it being a more recent amplifier than the NAP 250 DR
Could be, as far as I can see they don’t explicitly recommend their interconnects… but they do call out that they recommend their speaker cable with its specific electrical properties.
I do know that amplifier coupling with the impedance qualities of speaker cable as well as loudspeakers can be a sensitive matter with regard to audio performance from the amplifier.
In past designs the speaker cable acted as a kind of zobel network to stop instability caused by reactive elements in the speaker cable and driver load causing the amp’s feedback circuitry to oscillate resulting in over heating or destruction hence the firm stipulation of cable properties and minimum length. From what I can infer in modern designs the reactive speaker cable and speaker load is more about optimising the amp’s feedback performance rather than destruction prevention.
it applies to the Supernait, it being an even more recent version of a Naim amplifier.