More power for more control

Hi-Fi Corner
1

Hello everyone,

Thought I would post a little update on my system and experience if anyone could be interested.
I suffered, and still do, from quite a lot of bass “bloom” in my room and I always attributed that to the room being less than ideal, suspended wooden floors, a very deep and narrow room, room modes etc, it forces me to just listen at quieter levels when the bass becomes too bloated.
I have tried for a long time to find the correct speaker positioning, adding some Gaia Acoustic feet to the speakers, moving the listening position, adding the Hicap etc…, and I have found quite a sweet spot where the bass is under control for most of the recordings.

I am still really enjoying my current NaitXS3 + HicapDR integrated fed by a Nd5xs2 and into an Ndac on my Spendor A7 speakers but I recently had a chance to audition an Audio Research LS28 tube preamp in my system and I learned a lot from it:

I first tried it via the AV Bypass mode, using the Xs3 as a power amplifier only, there was quite a noticable and disturbing “huuuum” with that setup as the XS3 was running at full power and pushing that, usually unnoticeable noise from the listening position, into the silent parts of any song.

I then tried using it via another standard input via RCA and putting the Xs3’s volume knob at around 10-11 o’clock and that helped diminish the hum quite a bit, even if this setup wasn’t ideal either.
From what I heard I really enjoyed the more laid back sound of the tubes, the voices taking more space both in depth and in height and a bit more “humanity” to the sound in general.

However I felt like the trade off was a loss of detail and clarity in the upper spectrum, on voices especially and I felt like it was just not as good to my ears. I realise that this is a normal trade off with tubes but I feel like my speakers are already quite smooth and warm in the higher frequencies and that the combo with tubes just wasn’t a good match.
The bass was also really different, I felt like it was going lower and with more energy than I am used to and it was already feeling more tamed and less bloated.

Forward in time a bit and my friend lended me his tube preamp again and presented me to another of his “hifi head” friend that gracefully lended me a pair of Class D mono-block amps (can’t remember the make of it) that were using the Purifi 1ET400A M modules and both graded for around 400W each!
I wanted to have a listen to a non-Naim chain of preamp and amp, as I felt using the Xs3 as an amplifier only just wasn’t a good solution.

We sat and listened to it for a while, and the first thing that jumped out to me was that the bass bloom was just GONE, the bass was still having a lot of energy but was much dryer and faster, no more weird resonances at certain frequencies, just a clean bass overall, almost too laid back…
We then switched back to my system and we all agreed that it just sounded better, more balanced in general, and that a possible 4000 Swiss Francs (he was reselling his preamp and I had found a similar class D amp for around 1k) just wasn’t worth it.

It was a really great experience to have, as I discovered that the issue with bass maybe wasn’t only my room (having tried my almost exact setup at my dealer’s room where there was no such issue with bass, I always assumed my room was 100% of the issue) but that it might come from the XS3 not having quite enough power to grip my speakers with a firm enough hand and not being able to control the speakers firmly enough, I think that is what others refer to as the damping factor?

I then went down the upgrade rabbit hole and spent a lot of time studying what the most reasonable approach would be for me, I learned that I was now really sure about wanting to stay in the Naim family for my chain and that my speakers were not the real issue here (for a long time I thought I had overdone it with the speakers and that they were too much for my narrow room, for info it is about 4 meters wide and 10 meters long, speakers are about 50cm from the rear wall on that 4 meter wall, 60 cm from the sides and the listening position is about 2 meters from the speakers and is open behind it).
I thought about going the separates route and adding a Nap 200 or 250 and using the Xs3 as a preamp, but I don’t really have space for another box on my rack and I felt that using an integrated as a preamp only wasn’t an elegant solution either and that I would one day want to replace it by a dedicated preamp, thus increasing the box count even more.
Other than the box number issue it is also quite an expensive solution as a nap 200 plus a well needed recapping would cost around 2-2.5k here in Switzerland and didn’t allow me to sell anything off, and a 250 just isn’t in my budget.
I wanted to demo a Supernait 3 in my system as I have found that might be the best solution for me, but as they are no longer in production my dealer didn’t even have one to audition :frowning:

Very long story short, I have found a pristine 2022 Supernait 3 at a really affordable price, allowing me to audition it in my system and to resell it for a tiny profit if I really find the difference with the XS3 isn’t worth it.
But I think the upgrade makes sense, and if I resell the XS3 I am looking at around a 300-400 bucks upgrade that I would be dumb not to make.
I will be picking it up on Saturday and spend the reminder of my weekend glued to the couch to enjoy some good music and will gladly give an update if anyone is interested :slight_smile:
I will also give the Naca5 a try once I am used to the new amp, as I understand that might help with the speaker control as well?

Wishing you all a lovely weekend and some well deserved musical relief.
Julien

2 Likes
2

Hi Julien, in my humble experience a bloomy sound always due to inappropriate size of the speaker give the room size. A7 is the largest of Spendor’s A-Line. Have you thought about changing to smaller speakers? You would hear far more enjoyments once you found the right size for your room.

It certainly helps using some after-market tweaks to tighten up the bass, but not ideal hard tweaking the sound, and easily overkill what was right at the first place. If a XS3 sounds bloomy I could only see SN3 would even more so.

3

Boomy bass can be from room resonances and long room decay time, best fixed by acoustic treatment of room rather than abandoning bass, but it most certainly can also arise from poor grip of speaker by the amp, some speakers much more demanding of the amp tgan others. It is not really power per se, but available current and that rising fast enough. “Damping factor” can a,so play a part.

3 Likes
4

Finding the right size speaker was key for me - ATC 50active massively over powered my room where as the smaller 20active worked a treat…. It was definitely a case of more speaker was less better sound….

If you like the Spendor sound have you considered the a4?

1 Like
5

The difference between the XS3 and SN3 is important for me, they are on a different level. I’m sure the bass control will be much better, but there might be some other issues worth considering regardless of the amp:

  • Speaker positioning: it might be too close to the rear wall.
  • Room acoustics: this does affect the boomy sound and soundstage a lot. You should treat the first reflection points behind the speakers with some absorbers. But you can do more than that.
  • Interconnects and speaker cables: these can have an important impact on resonances and bass control, they have to be chosen wisely.
  • Hi-Fi rack and feet: these control boominess and tight up the sound.

After you get the SN3, I think you should start with the free tweaks, you might get some important results.

2 Likes
6

@Julien.H It strikes me that you should be working with a dealer you can trust. It appears that you like to buy used, but that approach has led you down a lot of rabbit holes. A bargain in only a bargain if it works for you long term.

7

Yes, if you buy used and not from dealers there can be greater challenges, and more “homework” is required, and care choosing (though it is often possible to audition secondhand gear if buying direct from previous owners). However many people can’t afford to buy new, or at least would have much lesser systems if they did, myself included, or don’t have a dealer within reasonable reach or not stocking things of interest,

8

Im trying a few power amps at the moment. All £5k plus, some double and a bit that too. One thing I’ve noticed is the better amps keep control of the bass ( amongst other things). This allows more mid and sub bass through. Im testing with some bass tracks that challenge lesser amps, and especially my existing one.

So yes to room treatment and speakers that fit your room, but dont overlook an amp that keeps a grip on the speaker.

3 Likes
9

I do appreciate everyone’s feedback, just wanted to clarifiy:

  • Regarding speaker choice for the room, I am aware that is an important consideration but I’m not really looking to change speakers as I really love them even with the little bass trouble.
  • I am only going down the upgrade route as this is a real bargain and I would be able to sell the Supernait without loosing anything, maybe even with a little cash bonus at the end
  • I made the choice to try a more powerfull amp only because of the experience with other equipment that gave me hope I could solve the issue that way
  • It is not a big issue in the sense that on 90% of tracks I find the balance perfectly acceptable, only some songs where the bass becomes overwhelming
10

@Innocent_Bystander I see your point. However, sometimes the savings are illusionary in the sense that if what you purchase used, does not work out then you are facing repeat purchases and more timr spent and a never ending cycle. Initially one might spend more either a good dealer, but less in thr long term. Also what happens if one needs service and has no desler to turn to.

11

@Julien.H i had a SN3 for almost two years. First driving the Spendor A4 speakers and then the D7.2. It did gloriously and I suspect it will be a huge upgrade to your existing Naim integrated. I found the SN3 to be cable sensitive. Get the best cables you can afford.

1 Like
12

That’s good news to my ears :slight_smile:

Are you talking speaker cables or power?

13

@Julien.H Intetconnects and speaker cable. Also what is the quality of your power? Do you have a lot of line noise.? I use the Isotek power management tools which drop line noise significantly. I am in NYC in a high-rise apartment building either lots of noise. You might not have that issue.

14

I don’t know if this will help. We are lucky to have our own listening room in which our speakers fire down the length of the room, size 10 feet across and 15 in length I am over 65 prefer imperial!

We replaced our 10 year old Q Acoustic Concept 20 with a pair of 1999 external cross over Naim Intro’s. Yes I know these are “marmite” speakers to some but we had them back when launched and wondered what they would sound like being driven by a 102/Hicap/200 & napsc.

Very revealing but bass seemed to dominate, speaker cables at the time were Witchhat N2 which we swapped out for NAC5. Huge difference more controlled bass but still not there. I’m not advocating you rush out and spend oodles of cash, but following on from the NAC5 , we put in Power Line Lites in all kit and again more detail more control. We replaced our interconnect between CDX and 102 with a High line.

No bloom, plenty of detail and no movement of speakers. It’s just a thought try the housekeeping route on cables etc before the kit.

It has given us the confidence to purchase a 250 to add the icing to the cake. Good luck.

15

Two years ago I moved my system into a tiny 10’ x 12’ (3m x 3.66m) room and had that very same issue, on bass heavy tracks bass became noticeably boomy. I started with room treatment which helped in many ways, but not with the bass bloom. Over the last two years I did several upgrades and tweaks that helped, but three really stood out in tightening the bass:

• Upgrade NAC 202 to NAC 282

• Upgrade from Herbie’s Giant Decoupling Gliders to StackAudio AUVA 70s

• Switched from WitchHat Phantom 5m speaker cables to NAC A5 7m

All three changes helped significantly, but I would say the NAC A5 was the most impactful, closely followed by the preamp upgrade. Now I can crank up the volume in bass heavy tracks and get tight, impactful, deep bass with little or no bass bloom. I initially thought the speakers pumped too much bass for the tiny room, but I was dead wrong. Fortunately, I didn’t switch speakers to bass-shy standmounters.

I’d say do upgrade to SN3, but try to get NAC A5 as soon as you can, Naim amplifiers absolutely love that cable.

3 Likes
16

Awesome feedback thanks a lot!

I will definitely givethe NACA5 a try once I’ll be able to sell the XS3 and get some cashflow back.

I am sure I can make my Spendors sing in that room, trying that preamp/amp combo showed me it was possible and I just love them too much to replace by some bookshelves that might be easier to tame but will never have that spark I enjoy, if the Supernait helps even a bit I will for sure allow him some decent NACA5 cables to help :slight_smile:

2 Likes
17

@Julien.H Assuming you can handle the inflexibility of NACA5, it is worth a try. I am a big Chord fan. You may find the SN3 is all you ever need.

1 Like
18

All cables follow LCR. If you find a speaker cable with the identical or better specs, then the cable work great.

Furutech DSS 4.1

DCR: 4.5 Ω/km
Inductance: ~0.7 µH/m
Capacitance: ~51.69 pF/m

Belden 5T00UP (10 AWG)

DCR (nom): 3.38 Ω/km
Inductance (nom): 0.49 µH/m
Capasitance (nom): 85 pF/m

No need to spend a lot of money on expensive cables.

If you have problems with bass nodes. Why not test a PSI Avaa active bass absorber?

2 Likes
19

The bass traps are $7500 a pair and you are questioning expensive cables?

2 Likes
20

Hi @Julien.H. I’m not that surprised by your observations regarding more power. A few years ago I moved from stand-mount PMC speakers (Fact 3s) with Naim 250DR power amp to active ATC floor standers. Although I enjoyed the ATCs at the dealer’s, I was worried whether going to bigger speakers and a much more powerful amp (250w vs 80w) would lead to bass issues in my room, so trialed them at home. To my surprise the opposite was the case: on the few tracks where the previous setup was a bit boomy, the ATCs were considerably less so. I suspect you’re right that some bass problems arise from amp/speaker interactions and moving to SN3 may well help with that.

One other thing: I notice you run your Naim XS3 with a HiCap. When I used a HC on my first generation Nait XS it did make it sound rather overblown, to my ears and those of some other forum members. I think one forum poster who had the same experience described the results as “manic”. So I just wonder whether the HC out might be contributing to the bloody bass.

Roger

1 Like